A MAMELUKE SABRE FOR COMENTS

[fernando]

A friend has just offered me this sword, in a deeply rusty condition. He says it has been in the house, from as long as he remembers.
After a couple hours browsing and researching in my residual library, i found no paralel for this example.
I assume it would be a cerimonial or parade superior officer sword, either in Britain, USA or even Portugal, if it had a brass or golden guard, military office symbols (chief of staff and the like) and a slimmer grip and blade.
However this one seems to have been made for business, with its sturdy ivory grip, held by efective (no decoration) screws and a western strong (cavalry) blade, 81 cms. long and 35 mm. wide at forte.
The blade might have been original blued as, after being cleaned, remained 'naturally' dark. The martial decorations, composed of florals and drum (in one face) and canon (in the) other, might have been filled in white, and not the usual gold ... so it seems to me eye.
Doers anyone recognise these decorations as being typical of a determined country?
Or, above all, is this particular sword pattern variation recognisable?
Any sugestions will be so much thanked for.
Fernando

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[celtan]

Hola Nando,

Engraved, not etched, meaning earlier than 1830s.

I have owned Napoleonic weapons with very similar art.

Does it have anything inscribed on its spine? Is the spine flat?

Best

M

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando,
This is of course the famed officers sabre that became known as the Mameluke, as it was adopted by France, England and America in recognition of these renowned warriors of Egypt. The sabres used by many of these Mamelukes with the familiar Ottoman hilt immediately influenced French officers who began using this style sabre immediately after defeating the Mamelukes at the Battle of the Pyramids. The British adopted the hilt style with the pattern 1831 sword for general officers.

In America, the Marines became influenced by the style during the wars with the Barbary Pirates (1801-1805) and eventually adopted the hilt style, however 'officially' the sabres used by thier officers were a French style of European form from 1804-1818.

The first mention of the 'mameluke' sabre in Marine regulations was in 1825, and subsequently in 1833 and 1839, these swords were mandated for Marine officers. In "The American Sword" (H.Peterson, p.167) it is noted that "...despite the fact that the 1825 regulations were the first to make the mameluke hilt mandatory, there is some indication it was already being worn by some Marine officers".

From illustrations I have seen, these earlier ivory hilts were often carved with a kind of 'palladian' type arch and other subtle detail. The shape seems very much like this very plain example. It is interesting that the plain ear and langet on the crossguard which is squared off rather than rounded seems to have been known on these hilts.

The inscribed panoply of martial motif on the blade seems characteristic of many sword blades for officers in these times, and are found on many various European officers sword blades. It does seem somewhat possible this could well be one of the sabres privately acquired by a Marine officer on this early period just prior to 1825. The styling, simple hilt (noted as often typical on early Marine swords) and the military motif which was generally applied in many trade produced blades may be considered in this.

The only question would be why the E Plurbis Unum and eagle are not present if this was made for an American officer, unless this was a sabre made in the period, perhaps in France but was not specified toward export to America. There are other possibilities of course in these times of England at war with France, then England and America at war, with France remaining allied to America from the time of the American Revolution. In these times there was dramatic cross influence of military fashion, and the one point with this sabre is that it is an officers mameluke sabre, and probably of c.1820 quite possibly that of an American Marine officer from private purchase.
With this speculation I would of course look forward to the results of further research and other observations.

I have always considered these officers mameluke sabres to be more dress swords, but this one I really like as it looks strictly business The patination and minor damage simply add to that charisma in its presence, and if proven to be one of these early Marine sabres, that effect would be well understood.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Richard]

Hi Fernando
If I had to guess, I would say this is British from around 1810 - 1820. My hesitation comes from the fact that there is no obvious British insignia on the blade. Other observations are that the blade decoration looks typical of Solingen of the period and the truncated langets are quite unusual. I would very much doubt that it is French as the hilt lacks the normal ostentation of French swords and most French mamelukes had horn or ebony grips because the French didn't the access to Indian ivory that the British enjoyed.

As Jim says, this style of sabre became the height of fashion in Europe after the Egyptian campaigns of 1799-1802. It is said that hardly one French soldier came back without a souvenir mameluke sabre in his pack and I'll bet the same applies to the British as well. Judging from contemorary paintings of the period, their adoption in the British army was also far more widespread than many reference books would have us believe - both for dress and field usage. On the basis "if you can't beat them, join them", the mameluke sabre was adopted in official dress regulations in Britian in 1822.
Here is one of mine which was made by Prosser and dates from 1819-1821. It was carried by an officer of the 3rd Light Dragoons.
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Good notes Richard, and I think what is most unusual are as you say, the lack of British markings, with the same case applying to the absence of American markings. I agree this would not be French, as thier officers indeed were attracted to ostentatious decoration, and it seems the grips were often of darker colored horn rather than ivory.

The truncated ear and langet piece of the crossguard is indeed unusual, and I cannot as yet find a corresponding example, with the exception of the instance of reproduction US Marine Corps sabres I have seen. Obviously this cannot be used for a reference, but it is curious to see the feature on these, and begs the question, why would this particular truncated shape be chosen.
Most of the mameluke style sabres, especially in the perameters of the regulation patterns, both British and American, are fully shaped and with various decoration in the ecusson.

The bulbous quillon terminals on this example we are discussing seem very much like the Prosser example you show, and most of the other examples are acorn or more classical shapes.

The British dress regulations of 1822 I believe were specifically directed toward lancer officers , who had apparantly already been wearing versions of these mameluke sabres since 1816. Robson ("Swords of the British Army" p.69) notes that officers of light dragoons (forerunners of lancer regiments) had been wearing these since as early as 1805. Also noted are comments by British general Mercer, "...generals and our field officers seemed to wear what they pleased and after the Egyptian campaign (1801) the mameluke sabre was quite the rage".

While it is hard to make out through the pitting, it seems that perhaps within this military motif on the blade are crossed lances? which are noted as having been seen on the lancer officer blades. If in these early, pre regulation times, these swords had become a popular 'rage' in England as well as in the U.S., it seems feasible that a rather generic, military themed sabre, might have been produced in Solingen which might have been marketed to officers of either country. The period in which we agree this sabre seems provenanced was notably in times of geopolitical strife, and with the major powers interested in these form sabres all being at some sort of odds, this might have been prudent.

All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Thank you so much for your extremely interesting coments, Gentlemen.
Manolo, the spine is flat. The only engraving i can see on it is a little efect on the forte section, more looking like a floral decor than a graphic mark ... unfortunately.
I have taken new pictures of the engravings, but the results were not such a success.
There are five decoration parts in both faces. One at the forte, partly hidden by the langets, composed of florals supported by semi circumferencial lines; next to it an isolated branch, followed by the main (martial) motif. The next is flower; finally a little narrow crosswise efect, of cursive type.
I still think this blade had (has) some dark finish to it, with the decoration in some whitish contrast.
I see Jim's point in that some of the martial efects in both faces may be lances ... eventualy with pennons. But aren't these, together with flags, drums and cannons, a mix that probably only pretend to be an allusion to the military theme in general?
Also i find well placed Richard's impression in that this must be a Solingen blade, as also accepted by Jim.
A private purchase, most certainly.
But then we have this riddle with the hilt; it does indeed lack the usual presumption of a sword to be used in parade or cerimonies by a General Officer. Also in Portugal these hilts were available for General officers, from which i have pictures of entire swords, as also loose hilt examples in one of my books.
It would then have probably belonged to a mid rank officer, definitely for use in combat. Also to consider that Generals had swords of plainer version to go on the field; would this be plausible?
Equally worthy of note is that Wellington, the person who highly influenced the fashion of Mameluke sabres in Europe, has been in Portugal between 1809 and 1814, in charge of the Anglo-Portuguese forces, during the Peninsular War.
I would also emphasize that the grip plates in these hilts are usualy held in place by the lanyard eyelet in the back end and their prolongation to beneath the upper langets in the front, the grip buttons being only for fantasy. In the case of this sword, not only the plates penetrate into the langets, as also the buttons are actual rather strong screws; even admiting that such screws were a later adiction ... still a symptom of this sword use in battle.
Once again thank you for your precious input. May i however, consider this an open thread, with a strong desire to soon find more about the identity of this sword.
Fernando

[celtan]

I believe its a Klingenthal blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding Fernando, and I think your ideas are very plausible. It does seem that there would have most certainly been a distinct awareness of these stylish sabres by Portuguese officers. The style itself is quite simple in the ivory Ottoman style grips with sword knot eyelet, and simple crossguard. This being the case we can only rely on subtle nuances such as the quillon terminals or perhaps the profile of the grips to lend identification to us.

You are right that the lances in the background in the panoply of military symbolism were pretty much a standard feature, as by thier length this would serve well as an inclusive yet visible backdrop.

The adoption of these sabres by US lancer officers was certainly inline with the American affinity for French fashion in uniforms and weaponry, and as has been noted, the French had begun use of these right after the Egyptian campaigns. American contact with these sabres was also established with thier own contact with Mamluks during the wars with Barbary pirates in this same period.

The British adoption of these sabres was not officially noted until 1822 for lancer officers, and not until 1831 for general and staff officers, but as is often the case, the regulations followed already established presence of the swords. By this time, these were well embellished and intended for dress and levee wear. It seems as noted that this sabre, by its solid simplicity, is indeed a combat weapon, and it is well known that cavalry officers had plainer example swords intended for use in combat explicitly. The agreed observation that this is a Solingen product intended to respond to the popularity of this sabre's form for officers suggests it might have been acquired by one in a number of armies of the time.

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

French.
Half its blade might have been covered by blue-black niello. The white may have come from a posterior attempt to stop the rusting process by first cleaning, then waxing the blade. The white stuff being wax deposits within the originally gilt engravings (gravures?).
Best
M

Originally Posted by fernando

The blade might have been original blued as, after being cleaned, remained 'naturally' dark. The martial decorations, composed of florals and drum (in one face) and canon (in the) other, might have been filled in white, and not the usual gold ... so it seems to me eye.
Or, above all, is this particular sword pattern variation recognisable?
Any sugestions will be so much thanked for.
Fernando

.

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by celtan

I believe its a Klingenthal blade.

Solingen I think.

Ian.

[celtan]

Hi Ian,

I have owned, and probably still have a couple, Klingenthal blades. Some were from the Coulaux brothers. They shared similar engravings in their spines. For private orders, the usual Klingenthal markers do not appear. As example, the Coulaux Freres mark would appear on the ricasso, yet heavy use often erases it.

Klingenthal was created just to emulate Solingen, so their styles are generally similar.

OTOH: There's the matter of a CW southern blade I own, which has a similar spine design, but which I haven't yet been able to pinpoint its provenance...

Best

M

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Solingen I think.

Ian.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Ian,


Klingenthal was created just to emulate Solingen, so their styles are generally similar.

Best

M

Klingenthal, or the La Manufacture d'Armes d'Alsace when it was founded in 1729, was always a state manufactory and not a collection of private entreprises like Solingen. It is probably more accurate to say it was supposed to emulate Potsdam rather than Solingen as it was borne from the French desire to have its own state regulated sword making industry. Of course Solingen blade makers were recruited when it was first founded so no doubt the styles would have been similar at that time but by the time of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815) and in particular when the Coulaux family became entrepreneurs in 1801, the respective styles were chalk and cheese. I agree with Ian - that little floral swirl on the back of the blade is absolutely Solingen but also found on many 1st Empire French officer swords because so many were made in Solingen when it was under French control from 1807 to 1813. Klingenthal did have some private output at this time but it was minimal, the main effort was concentrated on equipping the vast French armies and making good campaign losses sustained in Spain and Russia.

Richard

[celtan]

Hi Richard,

I'm quite familiar with Klingenthal, merci beaucoup a Jean Binck.
But thanks for the refresher, anyway. : )
For some reason, I did not keep a good picture depot of my old blades, yet I found this one, clearly w the Coulaux inscription. The other one I had, I couldn't get a clear picture of the ricasso, the langet obscuring the name.

Best regards

M





the other, also Klingenthal (Vallee des lames : )

Originally Posted by Richard

Klingenthal, or the La Manufacture d'Armes d'Alsace when it was founded in 1729, was always a state manufactory and not a collection of private entreprises like Solingen. It is probably more accurate to say it was supposed to emulate Potsdam rather than Solingen as it was borne from the French desire to have its own state regulated sword making industry. Of course Solingen blade makers were recruited when it was first founded so no doubt the styles would have been similar at that time but by the time of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815) and in particular when the Coulaux family became entrepreneurs in 1801, the respective styles were chalk and cheese. I agree with Ian - that little floral swirl on the back of the blade is absolutely Solingen but also found on many 1st Empire French officer swords because so many were made in Solingen when it was under French control from 1807 to 1813. Klingenthal did have some private output at this time but it was minimal, the main effort was concentrated on equipping the vast French armies and making good campaign losses sustained in Spain and Russia.

Originally Posted by Richard

Richard

[fernando]

Olá Manuel,
The little floral on the spine of your blade does indeed looks the same as in mine.
However i tend to accept the context approached by Richard, when he says:

"Of course Solingen blade makers were recruited when it was first founded so no doubt the styles would have been similar at that time but by the time of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815) and in particular when the Coulaux family became entrepreneurs in 1801, the respective styles were chalk and cheese. I agree with Ian - that little floral swirl on the back of the blade is absolutely Solingen but also found on many 1st Empire French officer swords because so many were made in Solingen when it was under French control from 1807 to 1813"

By the way, how did i not remember to consult Jean Binck?
As he told you something further to the blade decoration origin?
Like the origin of the sword as a whole?

Salud, viño y mujeres.

Fernando

[Richard]

All,

I have it on very good authority that quite often Solingen makers signed (i.e. forged) "Coulaux freres" on their blades to make them more acceptable to the French market.

Richard

[celtan]

Howdy guys,

Nandinho, I agree that Klingenthal had at its origins a core of Solingen armourers. And nopey, Jean did assist me with other blades, quite effectively, if I may add.

I don't know that much about french blades to effectively distinguish between their styles from Solingen.

Richard, the second sword had Klingenthal inscribed on the ricasso, and it also sports a spine flowery decoration.

May I surmise from you comment, that only Solingen blades carried spine motifs? What about the second Klingenthal blade? Did Solingen also use the Klingenthal cartouche?

I'm aware they routinely used spanish armouries marks to better market their wares.

I, for one, would like to hear more on the subject of blade spine symbols.

Best

M

[fernando]

Let me post here the new look of this thread's sabre hilt, with a new pair of ivory plates. The restorer sure knew how to select an aged looking part of the material.
Pity the steel parts were much too cleaned ... at least beyond my desire.
.