Sudanese(?) shamshir anomaly

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2023, 05:55 PM

This unusual shamshir was discussed here over 23 years ago, and it was speculated that this anomaly was a genuinely intended weapon (not a tourism souvenir) of late 19th into 20th Sudan. The most compelling suggestion for Sudanese provenance is the flared scabbard tip.

The Ottoman style pistol grip hilt and crossguard and the European type scabbard chape and the ball on the tip (mindful of the thum on janbiyya scabbard tips) are also elements adding to the conundrum of this piece.

The diagonally reticulated design of lozenge form is a decorative motif favored on the kaskara of early 20th c. in 'Ali Dinar' (Darfur) period into later Kassala period, so is also interesting element.

In discussions c. 2000, it was suggested that the composition of the blade appeared to be "Istanbul beyaz' type damascus (as described in Stone as mid 19th c.)There were concerns that the blade might have been forged locally in imitation of that process as though it is of good quality, there are forging flaws. I do not have the sword available presently so just add that pending observations and questions.

I wanted to show this here, and hope for observations and thoughts on the possible character of the sword as far as being for ceremony or perhaps wear as a dress accoutrement.
Has anyone seen anything like this in Sudanese context?

Tim Simmons · 7th January 2023, 08:08 AM

The actual grip is not unusual. This style of dress sword was quite popular with British high ranking officers.

A.alnakkas · 7th January 2023, 09:38 AM

Existence of curved Sudanese swords is documented, even if not as frequent as straight blades. Looks like an Ottoman/Egyptian sword that was redressed in Sudanese style without changing the handle's overall shape. I wonder what's under the brass sheet!

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2023, 06:18 PM

Thank you guys for responding, indeed British colonial officers had a genuine affinity for 'exotica' and there was a notable cottage industry in outfitting which had a strong center in British controlled Aden in Arabia as well as of course in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan.
This example however has the distinct ring of a weapon intended for status or ceremonial wear for a Sudanese notable, probably of the Condominium period.

It is true that the British favored sabers with the bulbous pommel Ottoman hilt, which was exemplified by the well know 'mameluke' style officers saber. This example with this type of brass hilt in this shape is not at all in the quality and style of those hilts, and while sabers are indeed known in the Sudan this is unusual in the character of the blade.

In discussions of those years ago, it was suggested that the flaws in the forging of the 'Istanbul bayez' damascus seems to have been possibly produced by a Sudanese maker who had 'been making kaskara blades' but perhaps with Ottoman direction.

The reticulation in the hilt shows remains of the medium which apparently held some type of decorative fixtures in the spaces since removed. The character of the fashioned brass is atypical for this type of hilt, and recalls certain hilts produced in India on pata for example in 19th c. I would imagine there is a wood basis underneath.

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2023, 07:42 PM

In interesting research I am following on this saber, I had recalled a photo of a mounted Sudanese official who had a kaskara saddle mounted in the early European manner of a 'tuck' (long straight sword situated under riders left leg). He was also wearing a side mounted sword, which I misremembered as a saber.

In fact this photo appears to be a late 19th c. image of the notorious Zebeyr Pasha, a well known slave trader, probably in Cairo c. 1887-1899. While he was from Sudan, he began his nefarious trade activity c.1856, controlling much of Chad and Congo regions bordering west Sudan. His headquarters were in Deim Zubeir in Bahr el Ghazal in that Sudanese area.

He was prominent in the period known as the TURKIYA (1821-1884) when Ottoman Egypt conquered the Funj kingdom of Sudan in 1821.

Without going into long and complex detail, basically Zebeyr Pasha (Al Zubayr Rahma Mansur, 1830-1913) was notably influenced by Ottomans via Egypt and the Khedive.

The photo shows Zubeyr Pasha with the sword at his side being apparently an Arab/Ottoman pallasche (straight blade) with the characteristic bulbous pommel hilt, worn apparently in the manner of the shorter kaskara often seen from Sudan with shoulder strap.
Attached photo of Beja warrior mounted and wearing kaskara in this manner.

In 1877 when British General Charles Gordon came to suppress slavery in these regions, he actually asked for governorship of newly conquered Darfur from the Khedive of Egypt but was denied. While not allowed to go to Sudan either he was allowed to go to Constantinople at outbreak of Russo-Turkish war.

I would note here that the 'pallashe' of Arab form he is wearing in the photo is much like examples like this I have seen with clear connection to Egypt in late 19th c. In 1887, Zubeyr returned to Cairo, where he remained until returning to Sudan in 1899.

Without enough detail as yet to speculate on my example (OP) I would suggest that perhaps this may be the context where more answers may be found. Perhaps the profound influence of the Ottomans in Egypt were partly at hand, and the Turkish influences possibly experienced in Constantinople might have prompted such a sword form for figures under his control.

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2023, 08:29 PM

In previous post I had mentioned the 'straight saber' (pallasche) of Arab/Ottoman form as known in Anglo-Egyptian condominium Egypt.
Here is a photo of one from some years ago I saw. It seems remarkably like the one worn by Zebyr Pasha on horseback.

Next is an Indian pata I have had for over 40 years which has interesting history of its own from my acquisition of it (saving that for memoirs

Here is the 'style' of brass work I mentioned with reference to the hilt of my saber (OP). Of further and compelling interest is the blade, which appears to be European with astral motif and remarkably like those found of course in kaskara.
The possibilities of this unusual combination are intriguing, and well illustrate the colonial confluences of the last quarter of 19th c. Great Britain.

Battara · 8th January 2023, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Looks like an Ottoman/Egyptian sword that was redressed in Sudanese style without changing the handle's overall shape. I wonder what's under the brass sheet!

I was wondering the same thing.........

Peter Hudson · 8th January 2023, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This unusual shamshir was discussed here over 23 years ago, and it was speculated that this anomaly was a genuinely intended weapon (not a tourism souvenir) of late 19th into 20th Sudan. The most compelling suggestion for Sudanese provenance is the flared scabbard tip.

The Ottoman style pistol grip hilt and crossguard and the European type scabbard chape and the ball on the tip (mindful of the thum on janbiyya scabbard tips) are also elements adding to the conundrum of this piece.

The diagonally reticulated design of lozenge form is a decorative motif favored on the kaskara of early 20th c. in 'Ali Dinar' (Darfur) period into later Kassala period, so is also interesting element.

In discussions c. 2000, it was suggested that the composition of the blade appeared to be "Istanbul beyaz' type damascus (as described in Stone as mid 19th c.)There were concerns that the blade might have been forged locally in imitation of that process as though it is of good quality, there are forging flaws. I do not have the sword available presently so just add that pending observations and questions.

I wanted to show this here, and hope for observations and thoughts on the possible character of the sword as far as being for ceremony or perhaps wear as a dress accoutrement.
Has anyone seen anything like this in Sudanese context?

Hello Jim, My initial reaction was to consider this as a mixed variant perhaps using Kilij, Shaska or other sword parts including a blade possibly from a Shamshir..
Looking at it again I think Kaskara Hilt, Kaskara Scabbard and adornment to leather with star shape ... and a star shape to the design at Pommel ... with dot clusters in 3 and 5 dot sequences ... and typical of the sort of battle dress/weaponry worn by the warriors primed to not only destroy the enemy but to go to heaven trying... So for ceremonial as well as for battle.

If this was originally a Kaskara it seems the pommel was of no purpose other than decorative and not as a counter ballance but to prevent the sword falling from the hand although I would also expect a wrist strap to have been used.. The curved blade is a little confusing as normally straight it can be carried slung over the back and taking advantage of a usually straight blade and the widened scabbard near the tip.

My only reference is the excellent work
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/...lver_dress.pdf

Regards, Peter.

Edster · 9th January 2023, 01:11 AM

My guess it was a Slavers Sword, pre-Mahdiya, not related to the Mahdiya 1985-99 or neo-Mahdiya in the c. 1920c. Designed to intimidate and exhibit power to Southern Blacks captives and not to exhibit Sudanese social/cultural solidarity. It doesn't exhibit Sudanese kaskara design themes only to suggest them. The cross-guard is cast bronze like those from Eqypt on non-combat kaskara not forged iron as on "real" kaskara. The metal grip coverings are copper not silver as would signal owner prestige. The scabbard exhibits better design & execution quality than the saber itself.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Best,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2023, 01:32 AM

Peter, thank you for these observations, and this does has composite elements, most notably the Ottoman crossguard, and the grip does seem that it could be kaskara, with the bulbous Ottoman style pommel added.

In discussions years ago, as noted, it was observed that the 'Istanbul bayez' shamshir blade had flaws suggesting possible, if not probable local workmanship perhaps by a maker more aligned with making kaskara. As I suggested earlier, the Ottoman alignment with Zubeir Pasha might have had Ottoman craftsman influences in shops which might have produced this anomaly.

The decorative character of this sword suggests it may have been a sword of status or ceremonial for a ranking figure in Zubeyrs forces.
The outstanding work by Ed Hunley you linked is some of the best research data on Sudanese edged weapons to date.

The motif, in particular the diamond/lozenge pattern is as noted distinctive for regions in Darfur, which aligns with the Zubeir Pasha possibility as his key areas of operation were in Darfur (West Sudan).

It has been suggested that curved or saber blades are not unusual in Sudan, and I am hoping to see examples, particularly of this period ending in the time of Ali Dinar until his death 1914.

6th January 2023, 05:55 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Sudanese(?) shamshir anomaly This unusual shamshir was discussed here over 23 years ago, and it was speculated that this anomaly was a genuinely intended weapon (not a tourism souvenir) of late 19th into 20th Sudan. The most compelling suggestion for Sudanese provenance is the flared scabbard tip. The Ottoman style pistol grip hilt and crossguard and the European type scabbard chape and the ball on the tip (mindful of the thum on janbiyya scabbard tips) are also elements adding to the conundrum of this piece. The diagonally reticulated design of lozenge form is a decorative motif favored on the kaskara of early 20th c. in 'Ali Dinar' (Darfur) period into later Kassala period, so is also interesting element. In discussions c. 2000, it was suggested that the composition of the blade appeared to be "Istanbul beyaz' type damascus (as described in Stone as mid 19th c.)There were concerns that the blade might have been forged locally in imitation of that process as though it is of good quality, there are forging flaws. I do not have the sword available presently so just add that pending observations and questions. I wanted to show this here, and hope for observations and thoughts on the possible character of the sword as far as being for ceremony or perhaps wear as a dress accoutrement. Has anyone seen anything like this in Sudanese context? Attached Images

7th January 2023, 06:18 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Thank you guys for responding, indeed British colonial officers had a genuine affinity for 'exotica' and there was a notable cottage industry in outfitting which had a strong center in British controlled Aden in Arabia as well as of course in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. This example however has the distinct ring of a weapon intended for status or ceremonial wear for a Sudanese notable, probably of the Condominium period. It is true that the British favored sabers with the bulbous pommel Ottoman hilt, which was exemplified by the well know 'mameluke' style officers saber. This example with this type of brass hilt in this shape is not at all in the quality and style of those hilts, and while sabers are indeed known in the Sudan this is unusual in the character of the blade. In discussions of those years ago, it was suggested that the flaws in the forging of the 'Istanbul bayez' damascus seems to have been possibly produced by a Sudanese maker who had 'been making kaskara blades' but perhaps with Ottoman direction. The reticulation in the hilt shows remains of the medium which apparently held some type of decorative fixtures in the spaces since removed. The character of the fashioned brass is atypical for this type of hilt, and recalls certain hilts produced in India on pata for example in 19th c. I would imagine there is a wood basis underneath. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 7th January 2023 at 07:09 PM.

7th January 2023, 07:42 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	In interesting research I am following on this saber, I had recalled a photo of a mounted Sudanese official who had a kaskara saddle mounted in the early European manner of a 'tuck' (long straight sword situated under riders left leg). He was also wearing a side mounted sword, which I misremembered as a saber. In fact this photo appears to be a late 19th c. image of the notorious Zebeyr Pasha, a well known slave trader, probably in Cairo c. 1887-1899. While he was from Sudan, he began his nefarious trade activity c.1856, controlling much of Chad and Congo regions bordering west Sudan. His headquarters were in Deim Zubeir in Bahr el Ghazal in that Sudanese area. He was prominent in the period known as the TURKIYA (1821-1884) when Ottoman Egypt conquered the Funj kingdom of Sudan in 1821. Without going into long and complex detail, basically Zebeyr Pasha (Al Zubayr Rahma Mansur, 1830-1913) was notably influenced by Ottomans via Egypt and the Khedive. The photo shows Zubeyr Pasha with the sword at his side being apparently an Arab/Ottoman pallasche (straight blade) with the characteristic bulbous pommel hilt, worn apparently in the manner of the shorter kaskara often seen from Sudan with shoulder strap. Attached photo of Beja warrior mounted and wearing kaskara in this manner. In 1877 when British General Charles Gordon came to suppress slavery in these regions, he actually asked for governorship of newly conquered Darfur from the Khedive of Egypt but was denied. While not allowed to go to Sudan either he was allowed to go to Constantinople at outbreak of Russo-Turkish war. I would note here that the 'pallashe' of Arab form he is wearing in the photo is much like examples like this I have seen with clear connection to Egypt in late 19th c. In 1887, Zubeyr returned to Cairo, where he remained until returning to Sudan in 1899. Without enough detail as yet to speculate on my example (OP) I would suggest that perhaps this may be the context where more answers may be found. Perhaps the profound influence of the Ottomans in Egypt were partly at hand, and the Turkish influences possibly experienced in Constantinople might have prompted such a sword form for figures under his control. Attached Images

7th January 2023, 08:29 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	addendum to prev post In previous post I had mentioned the 'straight saber' (pallasche) of Arab/Ottoman form as known in Anglo-Egyptian condominium Egypt. Here is a photo of one from some years ago I saw. It seems remarkably like the one worn by Zebyr Pasha on horseback. Next is an Indian pata I have had for over 40 years which has interesting history of its own from my acquisition of it (saving that for memoirs Here is the 'style' of brass work I mentioned with reference to the hilt of my saber (OP). Of further and compelling interest is the blade, which appears to be European with astral motif and remarkably like those found of course in kaskara. The possibilities of this unusual combination are intriguing, and well illustrate the colonial confluences of the last quarter of 19th c. Great Britain. Attached Images

7th January 2023, 08:08 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The actual grip is not unusual. This style of dress sword was quite popular with British high ranking officers.

7th January 2023, 09:38 AM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Existence of curved Sudanese swords is documented, even if not as frequent as straight blades. Looks like an Ottoman/Egyptian sword that was redressed in Sudanese style without changing the handle's overall shape. I wonder what's under the brass sheet!

9th January 2023, 01:11 AM	#9
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	My guess it was a Slavers Sword, pre-Mahdiya, not related to the Mahdiya 1985-99 or neo-Mahdiya in the c. 1920c. Designed to intimidate and exhibit power to Southern Blacks captives and not to exhibit Sudanese social/cultural solidarity. It doesn't exhibit Sudanese kaskara design themes only to suggest them. The cross-guard is cast bronze like those from Eqypt on non-combat kaskara not forged iron as on "real" kaskara. The metal grip coverings are copper not silver as would signal owner prestige. The scabbard exhibits better design & execution quality than the saber itself. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Best, Ed

9th January 2023, 01:32 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Peter, thank you for these observations, and this does has composite elements, most notably the Ottoman crossguard, and the grip does seem that it could be kaskara, with the bulbous Ottoman style pommel added. In discussions years ago, as noted, it was observed that the 'Istanbul bayez' shamshir blade had flaws suggesting possible, if not probable local workmanship perhaps by a maker more aligned with making kaskara. As I suggested earlier, the Ottoman alignment with Zubeir Pasha might have had Ottoman craftsman influences in shops which might have produced this anomaly. The decorative character of this sword suggests it may have been a sword of status or ceremonial for a ranking figure in Zubeyrs forces. The outstanding work by Ed Hunley you linked is some of the best research data on Sudanese edged weapons to date. The motif, in particular the diamond/lozenge pattern is as noted distinctive for regions in Darfur, which aligns with the Zubeir Pasha possibility as his key areas of operation were in Darfur (West Sudan). It has been suggested that curved or saber blades are not unusual in Sudan, and I am hoping to see examples, particularly of this period ending in the time of Ali Dinar until his death 1914.