Seven spears from same origin?

fernando · 22nd September 2007, 03:00 PM

Hello please help to ID these blades.
They would be African, right ?
Most probably from same origin, people or tribe ?
Would they be for fighting or rather hunting ?. Both one of those and also ceremonial ?
As old as XIX century, or rather modern ?
Thanks a lot for all possible help.
fernando

Tim Simmons · 22nd September 2007, 06:26 PM

These are from the Southern Sudan and Congo borders. A single spear head is an object with the main part missing. A large group of spear heads becomes a collection with a pin point theme

and can be added to with not too great expense.

fernando · 22nd September 2007, 06:46 PM

Thank you Tim,
I should have said in the first place that i didn't yet buy these pieces.
The seller opens his mouth too wide, i think the price he wants is implausible.
I will send you an email with the figures envolved, for your coment, if you don't mind

On the other hand, if i only buy one or two, i loose the sense of collection, as you well pinpoint yourself.
Just please tell me if it is a pitty i let them go

Are they hunting, fighting or ( also ) ceremonial ? i put it that way because of the intense barbing, more than enough to do the actual job, i would say?
Thanks again
fernando

dennee · 22nd September 2007, 06:57 PM

Knowing next to nothing about African spears, they may be ceremonial, but they seem to be at least derived from hunting types because of the barbs. One would generally not want one's spear to get caught in a human opponent during combat (as opposed to an arrow or even javelin perhaps), but if stuck in a severely wounded large animal, that animal could be tracked to its death or dispatched with a coup de grace whne weakened. One could presumably retrieve the spear head by cutting it out during butchering.

Freddy · 22nd September 2007, 07:02 PM

As Tim said, these spearpoints are from the Northeastern border of Congo. This is the Ubangi-area. Main tribes are the Zande and Mangbetu.

These spearpoints are fitted to light shaft and then used as throwing spears. In fact, they are harpoons as the barbs prevent the spearpoint from slipping from the animal's body.

In the book 'IJzerwerk van Centraal-Afrika' (Ironwork from Central Africa) by H. Westerdijk, the authors states that there are two types of harpoonspears : those with a fixed point and those with a loose point. The ones with a loose spearpoint (although fastened to the shaft by means of a cord) are only used for the hunt.
The ones with a fixed spearpoint were also used for war.

The spearpoints you showed are of the last type, so used for hunting as well as for war.

fernando · 22nd September 2007, 07:58 PM

Thank you Dennee
My question was more towards the quantity of barbs. Usualy harpoon like devices have much less quantity of them, i would think, and still they do the job.
So i thaught that the exuberant amount of barbs would be somehow for exhibiting.

Thanks a lot for your qualifyed input, Freddy. But as i told Tim, the price the seller wants for them is unreasonable, so i am afraid i will have to let them go.
Dank u wel
fernando

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2007, 08:16 PM

These appear very similar to spears of the Mahdist period in the Sudan. According to information from a large Sudanese collection, each man was supposed to carry at least three spears into battle. One of 8-10 ft. long as well as two shorter ones. The short ones were hurled from close range before assault with the long spear.
Since the shorter ones were to be thrown, thus no longer required by the warrior, it would make sense that these vicious barbed features would be intended to disable the victim because they could not be withdrawn.

It seems that in a discussion I once had with a young man from Darfur, he told me that more spears were required to be carried by each warrior, as many as 6 or 7 I think. It was not clear however what size these would have been. The cavalrymen of the Baggara tribe had leather quivers at the horses side filled with spears, but no numbers are given.

22nd September 2007, 03:00 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Seven spears from same origin? Hello please help to ID these blades. They would be African, right ? Most probably from same origin, people or tribe ? Would they be for fighting or rather hunting ?. Both one of those and also ceremonial ? As old as XIX century, or rather modern ? Thanks a lot for all possible help. fernando Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 22nd September 2007 at 05:36 PM. Reason: forgotten the attachments

22nd September 2007, 06:26 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,783	These are from the Southern Sudan and Congo borders. A single spear head is an object with the main part missing. A large group of spear heads becomes a collection with a pin point theme and can be added to with not too great expense.

22nd September 2007, 06:46 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Tim, I should have said in the first place that i didn't yet buy these pieces. The seller opens his mouth too wide, i think the price he wants is implausible. I will send you an email with the figures envolved, for your coment, if you don't mind On the other hand, if i only buy one or two, i loose the sense of collection, as you well pinpoint yourself. Just please tell me if it is a pitty i let them go Are they hunting, fighting or ( also ) ceremonial ? i put it that way because of the intense barbing, more than enough to do the actual job, i would say? Thanks again fernando

22nd September 2007, 06:57 PM	#4
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Knowing next to nothing about African spears, they may be ceremonial, but they seem to be at least derived from hunting types because of the barbs. One would generally not want one's spear to get caught in a human opponent during combat (as opposed to an arrow or even javelin perhaps), but if stuck in a severely wounded large animal, that animal could be tracked to its death or dispatched with a coup de grace whne weakened. One could presumably retrieve the spear head by cutting it out during butchering.

22nd September 2007, 07:02 PM	#5
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	As Tim said, these spearpoints are from the Northeastern border of Congo. This is the Ubangi-area. Main tribes are the Zande and Mangbetu. These spearpoints are fitted to light shaft and then used as throwing spears. In fact, they are harpoons as the barbs prevent the spearpoint from slipping from the animal's body. In the book 'IJzerwerk van Centraal-Afrika' (Ironwork from Central Africa) by H. Westerdijk, the authors states that there are two types of harpoonspears : those with a fixed point and those with a loose point. The ones with a loose spearpoint (although fastened to the shaft by means of a cord) are only used for the hunt. The ones with a fixed spearpoint were also used for war. The spearpoints you showed are of the last type, so used for hunting as well as for war.

22nd September 2007, 07:58 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Dennee My question was more towards the quantity of barbs. Usualy harpoon like devices have much less quantity of them, i would think, and still they do the job. So i thaught that the exuberant amount of barbs would be somehow for exhibiting. Thanks a lot for your qualifyed input, Freddy. But as i told Tim, the price the seller wants for them is unreasonable, so i am afraid i will have to let them go. Dank u wel fernando

22nd September 2007, 08:16 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,901	These appear very similar to spears of the Mahdist period in the Sudan. According to information from a large Sudanese collection, each man was supposed to carry at least three spears into battle. One of 8-10 ft. long as well as two shorter ones. The short ones were hurled from close range before assault with the long spear. Since the shorter ones were to be thrown, thus no longer required by the warrior, it would make sense that these vicious barbed features would be intended to disable the victim because they could not be withdrawn. It seems that in a discussion I once had with a young man from Darfur, he told me that more spears were required to be carried by each warrior, as many as 6 or 7 I think. It was not clear however what size these would have been. The cavalrymen of the Baggara tribe had leather quivers at the horses side filled with spears, but no numbers are given.