pamor for comment

sirek · 29th November 2009, 10:32 PM

Hello everyone, I’m new here and this is my first post in this forum.
I apologize if my English is not always correct , I live in the Netherlands and I have a great interest in the keris.
I was wondering if anybody has seen a pamor like this?, the blade is ful whith copper or brass circles.
I would appreciate any comments or information.
Thanks in advance for any comments

Rick · 29th November 2009, 10:57 PM

Now that's entertainment !

Always something interesting coming out of Madura; that is for sure .

brekele · 30th November 2009, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Always something interesting coming out of Madura; that is for sure .

Agreed!

Many many Pande in Madura (Aeng Tong Tong) or villages arround it making keris. From low quality until high quality. Not just all kind art of keris. I heard that a pande starting making other kind of swords too. For example YATAGHAN with tripple fullers and pamor lar gangsir, complete with arabic words that carved and made of silver

rasjid · 30th November 2009, 09:59 AM

This picture was taken November 2008 when I was in Aeng Tong Tong.

Just to show what they can do, all you need just asked.

BluErf · 30th November 2009, 02:40 PM

Hmmm... reminds me of the movie Dark City...

Well, there's a way to float anyone's boat...

David · 30th November 2009, 03:12 PM

Welcome Sirek. I am not sure that the comments so far have been particularly helpful to you. To be a little more direct, what you have on your keris i would not call pamor in that it is a decorative element that has been added after forging, perhaps to somewhat mimic the effect Udan Mas (golden rain) pamor. This is more akin to kinatah than pamor, the process of adding gold design elements to decorate a blade after forging, but this is not done with gold nor the considerable amount of artistry of good kinatah. As has been pointed out they are trying out some possible directions on contemporary keris from Madura these days.

sirek · 30th November 2009, 07:56 PM

Thanks for the comment,

the photo from Rasjid shows similar circles, and it seems that everything is possible, and I see it now as a form of artistic design.
I know that it is not everyone type of keris.

but it works for me.
Perhaps I can always use it to hypnotize someone with it

One of the reasons I bought him was that the carving was from a good quality and it cames whith a nice hardwood keris board that goes with it.
i believe that the keris of Madura is often a real work of art, but sometimes with olmost exaggerated decorations including the woodcarving.

David · 30th November 2009, 09:04 PM

That is indeed a nice keris board Sirek and the carving of hilt and sheath appears nice.
I think the idea that everything is possible these days in the keris world might have some truth to it, but for many the idea that anything goes is not always so valid.

In other worlds many collectors are still seeking keris that maintain a certain amount of integrity and adhere to the parameters of what a "real" keris is and are seeking keris that fall into one of the established "pakems" even if they are newly made contemporary blades. New invention in the keris world is not particularly well received by the collectoring community, sometimes, IMO, for good reason.
What i think the makers of your keris were doing was to provide a post-forging short-cut to the effect of pamor Udan Mas (golden rain). I have attached an image of what this might look like when actually done as a pamor pattern. This is not nearly the best example of this pamor's execution, just the most representational example i could find on the web at short notice to show you what this design looks like as a pamor pattern.

sirek · 30th November 2009, 10:18 PM

David I understand what you want to say,

In my collection I have a keris with a similar pattern ( but 'm not sure of the name of the pamor).

Rick · 30th November 2009, 10:42 PM

Do you have any keris books, Sirek ?

A. G. Maisey · 30th November 2009, 10:49 PM

This is pamor bonang rinenteng.

Marcokeris · 1st December 2009, 08:05 AM

or gamelan pamor too

sirek · 1st December 2009, 08:21 AM

the last year I've purchased some books,

but I must admit that I find it some times very difficult to recognize the right pamor.

often its only a unclear drawing

thats one of the reasons why I wanted to join this forum to learn the proper names,

and I appreciate very much the comments I get from you all

A. G. Maisey · 1st December 2009, 10:14 AM

Yes, the bonang is a gamelan instrument , and this pamor can be called bonang, or bonang rinenteng, or bonang sirenteng, or bonang sarenteng, or bonang rentengan, but we cannot call it "pamor gamelan".

Marcokeris · 1st December 2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, the bonang is a gamelan instrument , and this pamor can be called bonang, or bonang rinenteng, or bonang sirenteng, or bonang sarenteng, or bonang rentengan, but we cannot call it "pamor gamelan".

yes teacher

A. G. Maisey · 1st December 2009, 10:27 PM

Marco, I may be wrong, but I sense a degree of sarcasm in your most recent post.

I am not your teacher, nor the teacher of anybody else.

I am a reasonably well experienced person in the world of the Javanese keris, and when I post comments I do so to share that which I have learnt with others.

This is not teaching.

29th November 2009, 10:32 PM	#1
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 169	pamor for comment Hello everyone, I’m new here and this is my first post in this forum. I apologize if my English is not always correct , I live in the Netherlands and I have a great interest in the keris. I was wondering if anybody has seen a pamor like this?, the blade is ful whith copper or brass circles. I would appreciate any comments or information. Thanks in advance for any comments Attached Images

30th November 2009, 09:59 AM	#4
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Madura Keris This picture was taken November 2008 when I was in Aeng Tong Tong. Just to show what they can do, all you need just asked. Attached Images

30th November 2009, 07:56 PM	#7
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 169	Thanks for the comment, the photo from Rasjid shows similar circles, and it seems that everything is possible, and I see it now as a form of artistic design. I know that it is not everyone type of keris. but it works for me. Perhaps I can always use it to hypnotize someone with it One of the reasons I bought him was that the carving was from a good quality and it cames whith a nice hardwood keris board that goes with it. i believe that the keris of Madura is often a real work of art, but sometimes with olmost exaggerated decorations including the woodcarving. Attached Images

30th November 2009, 09:04 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	That is indeed a nice keris board Sirek and the carving of hilt and sheath appears nice. I think the idea that everything is possible these days in the keris world might have some truth to it, but for many the idea that anything goes is not always so valid. In other worlds many collectors are still seeking keris that maintain a certain amount of integrity and adhere to the parameters of what a "real" keris is and are seeking keris that fall into one of the established "pakems" even if they are newly made contemporary blades. New invention in the keris world is not particularly well received by the collectoring community, sometimes, IMO, for good reason. What i think the makers of your keris were doing was to provide a post-forging short-cut to the effect of pamor Udan Mas (golden rain). I have attached an image of what this might look like when actually done as a pamor pattern. This is not nearly the best example of this pamor's execution, just the most representational example i could find on the web at short notice to show you what this design looks like as a pamor pattern. Attached Images

30th November 2009, 10:18 PM	#9
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 169	David I understand what you want to say, In my collection I have a keris with a similar pattern ( but 'm not sure of the name of the pamor). Attached Images

29th November 2009, 10:57 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Now that's entertainment ! Always something interesting coming out of Madura; that is for sure .

30th November 2009, 02:40 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hmmm... reminds me of the movie Dark City... Well, there's a way to float anyone's boat...

30th November 2009, 03:12 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Welcome Sirek. I am not sure that the comments so far have been particularly helpful to you. To be a little more direct, what you have on your keris i would not call pamor in that it is a decorative element that has been added after forging, perhaps to somewhat mimic the effect Udan Mas (golden rain) pamor. This is more akin to kinatah than pamor, the process of adding gold design elements to decorate a blade after forging, but this is not done with gold nor the considerable amount of artistry of good kinatah. As has been pointed out they are trying out some possible directions on contemporary keris from Madura these days.

30th November 2009, 10:42 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Do you have any keris books, Sirek ?

30th November 2009, 10:49 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	This is pamor bonang rinenteng.

1st December 2009, 08:05 AM	#12
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	or gamelan pamor too

1st December 2009, 08:21 AM	#13
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 169	the last year I've purchased some books, but I must admit that I find it some times very difficult to recognize the right pamor. often its only a unclear drawing thats one of the reasons why I wanted to join this forum to learn the proper names, and I appreciate very much the comments I get from you all

1st December 2009, 10:14 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Yes, the bonang is a gamelan instrument , and this pamor can be called bonang, or bonang rinenteng, or bonang sirenteng, or bonang sarenteng, or bonang rentengan, but we cannot call it "pamor gamelan".

1st December 2009, 10:27 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Marco, I may be wrong, but I sense a degree of sarcasm in your most recent post. I am not your teacher, nor the teacher of anybody else. I am a reasonably well experienced person in the world of the Javanese keris, and when I post comments I do so to share that which I have learnt with others. This is not teaching.