European Napoeonic Wars Style Saber, ID?

AlexAtlas · 7th October 2011, 06:09 AM

Hi everyone, first post here as I finally ran into a sword I can not for my life figure out how to ID.

Ok I am officially stumped. This sword came in to me last month and after combing through all of my books, notes and the internet, I can not for my life get any comparable examples to ID it.

The style of the hilt is very close to Napoleonic War era French and Polish sabres, with the exception of the bottom where the tang ends, which looks Germanic in nature. The sword is also engraved with what looks like a lancers motif on one side and lances and an Elephant's head on the other. My wife says she sees a lion in there too, which i don't. The sword is also decorated with stars moons and other symbols, which go ALL the way down the blade. That's highly unusual and I have not seen this before, except on ornate presentation swords in museum collections. There's also leftovers of gold leaf pressed into the blade, which has worn off with use. Why was such a nice presentation blade so heavily used?

The swords is LARGE, about 3.5 feet from end of handle to scabbard tip, and heavy but well-balanced. the drag on the scabbard is REALLY worn almost completely down where it would have touched the ground. There are NO marks outside of the engraved ones. No maker marks, no stampings on the blade, NOTHING.

My gut tells me it's an early blade, but what nation, conflict, etc?

And oh yes, the previous owner decided to "spice it up" by painting the handguard and the scabbard with black latex paint. thankfully he did not touch the leather handle or anything else. it comes off fine with a bit of fingernail scraping, as I hesitate to use any chemical on this piece.

I've heard everything from 1760's British Colonial to 1770's Hessian to 1820's Baden. I know someone out there must have seen a recorded example!

AlexAtlas · 7th October 2011, 09:42 AM

heres more pics of the markings on the blade

fernando · 7th October 2011, 01:13 PM

Hi Alex, welcome to the forum.
Let's hear what Jim and other members say about your beautiful sword.

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2011, 07:13 PM

Hi Alex, welcome to the forum. I think your instincts are correct in the approximate Napoleonic assessment with this anomaly, and being stumped by these conundrums is pretty much to be expected. The main factor creating these kinds of dilemmas with these seemingly hybrid weapons in my opinion is production exports (commonly Solingen of course) coupled with diffusion into colonial regions.
Naturally all that can be offered in this situation is deductive reasoning and speculation based on facts at hand and comparitive analysis to known weapon forms.
At first glance this does seem like a French ANXI light cavalry sabre, the most compelling features the elliptical langet and the three bar guard. What steers away is that this has a plain 'birdhead' pommel rather than the 'capped' French style pommel. Also missing is the elliptical 'button' at grip center seen on the ANXI.
I cant tell if the metal is brass or iron, but appears to be iron .

Probably the most suggestive feature on this sword would of course be the inscriptions on the blade.It seems to me that motif running full or nearly full length of blade is sometimes the case on Napoleonic period officers swords.
Interestingly one that I recall used a crescent moon motif. The interesting panoplies of military motif, particularly what appears to be a lance with an elephant suggests to me India. The arrow pierced drum also seems related to Indian origin motif. The curious crescent with what appears blades extending recalls a number of Indian weapons with this blade configuration, coupled with the crescent, a key symbol in much of India's cosmology.

While obviously Great Britain is primarily associated with the colonization of India, other powers were represented there as well particularly Portugal (the original colonial power there); Denmark, and France. France maintained thier colonial presence in Pondicherry, Chandernagare, Yanam, Mahe and Karaikal.
Though this was interuppted for a period during Napoleonic Wars, these were returned to France in 1816.

Interestingly Chandanagore's (NE India, Bengal) name is in Bengali is Chandra (=moon) and nagar (=city). It was more commonly known in Bengali as Farasdanga (Beng. farasi =French; danga =city). Tenuously it is tempting to note the cosmological character in the motif along with the military elements and suppose that perhaps this might be a sword to an officer in French units here sometime toward mid 19th century.
Naturally it seems quite possible for the same attribution to other locations of French colonial presence in SE Asia such as French IndoChina (Viet Nam).

With the features of the sword, Germany produced swords with certain features common to French, British and Spanish (among others) weapons. Some were complete rather than being simply blades. Denmark also had hilts like these which were in brass like the French ANXI, Russia copied these and there were likely other European copies.

With these observations it would seem a fair assumption this may have been a German made officers sword to an officer in a French colonial unit in India about mid to later 19th century, or French holdings in SE Asia.

Incidentally, I have seen Solingen made sabres with this configuration hilt if recalling correctly as well as similar langets for Spanish colonial use in c.1820s.Seemed worthy of note.

All best regards,
Jim

AlexAtlas · 21st December 2011, 06:41 PM

Thank you Jim, very detailed and thorough explanation!

I'm going to guess we're just going to have to leave this one to speculation, until some concrete evidence or a matching example with provenance appears to tell us the exact history.

once again, thank you very much sir.

Jim McDougall · 22nd December 2011, 02:17 AM

Alex, actually I thank you for returning and responding to my post. I recall this sabre and thought it quite fascinating, and was surprised to see so little further response on it. The detail I discovered was of course speculative, but plausible in any case, and I am grateful that you found it helpful.

All the very best,
Jim

Atlantia · 22nd December 2011, 08:14 AM

It's a beautiful sword Alex. I find that the unusual etching is maddeningly familiar, expecially the distinctive elephant head.
I echo Nando and Jims suprise that nobody else has come in on this one.

Tremendous (as usual) deductive reasoning from our own Mr McDougall.
It may be that you'll have to try a specialist group for the Napoleonic wars/era or as Jim suggests slightly later into the Victorian era.

Best
Gene

Edit: I was going to PM you a suggestion but your account doesn't accept private messages. Hopefully it's ok for me to suggest it here instead?
I can only think of one Napoleonic specific forum that might be helpful: www.napoleonicwarsforum.com

Make sure you stick around here to show us the rest of your collection. If this first one is anything to go by, you have a good eye for swords!

7th October 2011, 06:09 AM	#1
AlexAtlas Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: NY, USA Posts: 3	European Napoeonic Wars Style Saber, ID? Hi everyone, first post here as I finally ran into a sword I can not for my life figure out how to ID. Ok I am officially stumped. This sword came in to me last month and after combing through all of my books, notes and the internet, I can not for my life get any comparable examples to ID it. The style of the hilt is very close to Napoleonic War era French and Polish sabres, with the exception of the bottom where the tang ends, which looks Germanic in nature. The sword is also engraved with what looks like a lancers motif on one side and lances and an Elephant's head on the other. My wife says she sees a lion in there too, which i don't. The sword is also decorated with stars moons and other symbols, which go ALL the way down the blade. That's highly unusual and I have not seen this before, except on ornate presentation swords in museum collections. There's also leftovers of gold leaf pressed into the blade, which has worn off with use. Why was such a nice presentation blade so heavily used? The swords is LARGE, about 3.5 feet from end of handle to scabbard tip, and heavy but well-balanced. the drag on the scabbard is REALLY worn almost completely down where it would have touched the ground. There are NO marks outside of the engraved ones. No maker marks, no stampings on the blade, NOTHING. My gut tells me it's an early blade, but what nation, conflict, etc? And oh yes, the previous owner decided to "spice it up" by painting the handguard and the scabbard with black latex paint. thankfully he did not touch the leather handle or anything else. it comes off fine with a bit of fingernail scraping, as I hesitate to use any chemical on this piece. I've heard everything from 1760's British Colonial to 1770's Hessian to 1820's Baden. I know someone out there must have seen a recorded example! Attached Images

7th October 2011, 09:42 AM	#2
AlexAtlas Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: NY, USA Posts: 3	heres more pics of the markings on the blade Attached Images

7th October 2011, 07:13 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,873	Hi Alex, welcome to the forum. I think your instincts are correct in the approximate Napoleonic assessment with this anomaly, and being stumped by these conundrums is pretty much to be expected. The main factor creating these kinds of dilemmas with these seemingly hybrid weapons in my opinion is production exports (commonly Solingen of course) coupled with diffusion into colonial regions. Naturally all that can be offered in this situation is deductive reasoning and speculation based on facts at hand and comparitive analysis to known weapon forms. At first glance this does seem like a French ANXI light cavalry sabre, the most compelling features the elliptical langet and the three bar guard. What steers away is that this has a plain 'birdhead' pommel rather than the 'capped' French style pommel. Also missing is the elliptical 'button' at grip center seen on the ANXI. I cant tell if the metal is brass or iron, but appears to be iron . Probably the most suggestive feature on this sword would of course be the inscriptions on the blade.It seems to me that motif running full or nearly full length of blade is sometimes the case on Napoleonic period officers swords. Interestingly one that I recall used a crescent moon motif. The interesting panoplies of military motif, particularly what appears to be a lance with an elephant suggests to me India. The arrow pierced drum also seems related to Indian origin motif. The curious crescent with what appears blades extending recalls a number of Indian weapons with this blade configuration, coupled with the crescent, a key symbol in much of India's cosmology. While obviously Great Britain is primarily associated with the colonization of India, other powers were represented there as well particularly Portugal (the original colonial power there); Denmark, and France. France maintained thier colonial presence in Pondicherry, Chandernagare, Yanam, Mahe and Karaikal. Though this was interuppted for a period during Napoleonic Wars, these were returned to France in 1816. Interestingly Chandanagore's (NE India, Bengal) name is in Bengali is Chandra (=moon) and nagar (=city). It was more commonly known in Bengali as Farasdanga (Beng. farasi =French; danga =city). Tenuously it is tempting to note the cosmological character in the motif along with the military elements and suppose that perhaps this might be a sword to an officer in French units here sometime toward mid 19th century. Naturally it seems quite possible for the same attribution to other locations of French colonial presence in SE Asia such as French IndoChina (Viet Nam). With the features of the sword, Germany produced swords with certain features common to French, British and Spanish (among others) weapons. Some were complete rather than being simply blades. Denmark also had hilts like these which were in brass like the French ANXI, Russia copied these and there were likely other European copies. With these observations it would seem a fair assumption this may have been a German made officers sword to an officer in a French colonial unit in India about mid to later 19th century, or French holdings in SE Asia. Incidentally, I have seen Solingen made sabres with this configuration hilt if recalling correctly as well as similar langets for Spanish colonial use in c.1820s.Seemed worthy of note. All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th October 2011 at 06:48 PM.

22nd December 2011, 08:14 AM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	It's a beautiful sword Alex. I find that the unusual etching is maddeningly familiar, expecially the distinctive elephant head. I echo Nando and Jims suprise that nobody else has come in on this one. Tremendous (as usual) deductive reasoning from our own Mr McDougall. It may be that you'll have to try a specialist group for the Napoleonic wars/era or as Jim suggests slightly later into the Victorian era. Best Gene Edit: I was going to PM you a suggestion but your account doesn't accept private messages. Hopefully it's ok for me to suggest it here instead? I can only think of one Napoleonic specific forum that might be helpful: www.napoleonicwarsforum.com Make sure you stick around here to show us the rest of your collection. If this first one is anything to go by, you have a good eye for swords! Last edited by Atlantia; 22nd December 2011 at 08:29 AM.

7th October 2011, 01:13 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Alex, welcome to the forum. Let's hear what Jim and other members say about your beautiful sword.

21st December 2011, 06:41 PM	#5
AlexAtlas Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: NY, USA Posts: 3	Thank you Jim, very detailed and thorough explanation! I'm going to guess we're just going to have to leave this one to speculation, until some concrete evidence or a matching example with provenance appears to tell us the exact history. once again, thank you very much sir.

22nd December 2011, 02:17 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,873	Alex, actually I thank you for returning and responding to my post. I recall this sabre and thought it quite fascinating, and was surprised to see so little further response on it. The detail I discovered was of course speculative, but plausible in any case, and I am grateful that you found it helpful. All the very best, Jim