Origins please

[Gavin Nugent]

I recently purchased these two Shamshirs and a few other swords that I'll post in the weeks to come.
I have my ideas of origins from reading previous posts, some things make sense, others do not when reading through them. I would like to know more from those whose main interest lays with these swords.
The bottom sword with the larger blade is of particular interest to me as is the workmanship in the inlay of the handles of both swords.
I'll post more pics of the steel in the blades in good time once I have received them in the post and clean the grease from them.


thanks
Gav

[Jim McDougall]

These are Syrian shamshirs Gav, and these look like late 19th century, possibly into early 20th. I really like these (see my avatar and they were typically acquired by Bedouins in Arabia. It would be interesting to get a look at the blades.
Intertribal warfare and raiding prevailed well into 1930's and 40's in Arabia, probably much longer, in fact I'm sure well into the Nejd it still goes on, but more on that from our guys in Arabia.
These are handsome sabres and good examples of 20th century swords where these weapons were still used.

Best regards,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Jim, Any ideas on the bottom sword as to why it differs somewhat in dimensions so far as the blade is much broader than the usual Shamishirs I have seen and the hilt tapers more than I have seen on most too? I am guessing it is just a varient of styles prefered by owners???

Thanks for coming in.

Gav

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by freebooter

I am guessing it is just a varient of styles prefered by owners???
Gav

The makers had certain styles and the owners had to choose among them. I suppose that some of them wanted heavy blades.

I suggest to clean them and etch them. It could be damascus blade there

[RSWORD]

Blades often saw long service lifes, were family heirlooms, were extensively traded, etc so it is not uncommon to see older blades mounted up in late 19th or early 20th century mounts. While it is not an exact measuring tool, a wider, heavier blade with less curvature can be a fairly old blade especially if it is damascus. Anthony North in his book "Islamic Arms in the V&A" mentions that while it is difficult to date unprovenanced or undated swords the earlier ones tend to be wider and heavier and this was due to usage. It would have been used against armour. In the later times, 18th and 19th century, heavy armour slowly went away and the shamshir design slimmed down, took more curvature, etc.

Lovely swords!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Yannis

I suggest to clean them and etch them. It could be damascus blade there

I certainly hope so...What are the chances??? I look forward to posting a few happy snaps when they arrive. Sadly though, it appears I might have to let a couple of other pieces go from the collection to actually keep these as there will be a new member in the family in about 6 weeks, hopefully when he is old enough he mght just take an interest in my collections...

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Blades often saw long service lifes, were family heirlooms, were extensively traded, etc so it is not uncommon to see older blades mounted up in late 19th or early 20th century mounts. While it is not an exact measuring tool, a wider, heavier blade with less curvature can be a fairly old blade especially if it is damascus. Anthony North in his book "Islamic Arms in the V&A" mentions that while it is difficult to date unprovenanced or undated swords the earlier ones tend to be wider and heavier and this was due to usage. It would have been used against armour. In the later times, 18th and 19th century, heavy armour slowly went away and the shamshir design slimmed down, took more curvature, etc.

Lovely swords!

Thanks Rick, your expression of knowledge is always appreciated. I do look forward to feeling them first hand and I will note differences in my postings when they arrive, incidentally I acquired a not uncommon double jian with these as well, late Ching dynasty in pristine condition, when it too arrives I will post these as there is a difference of blade styles I would like to note and hear feedback on.

All the best

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gavin,
Rick is quite correct in noting that the heavier blades on these swords tends to reflect earlier date. I recall a sabre mounted with what I later discovered was a mid 17th century tulwar blade, and was indeed distinctly wide and very heavy.

As I was looking again at these Syrian sabres, I got out my trusty "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (Robert Elgood, 1994) and began reading in the first chapter. It was fascinating as the descriptions of Arabia through the 19th century and into the 20th spoke of the trade, warfare and supply of weapons of the Bedouin tribes. The caravans from Damascus through the Hijaz to Mecca it was noted, took 40 days before the completion of the Hijaz railway in 1908. Pilgrims would often bring trade items, including swords, to trade or sell to subsidize their journey.
In the Badiet esh Sham (Syrian desert), many of the northern confederation of Bedouin, collectively called Aniza, and of them the Rwala, prevailed in NW Saudi Arabia. While many Bedouin were of course nomadic, many also settled in towns which became trade centers in that region, especially Jauf, which it is noted was considered a Syrian town, with its diverse cultures.

The reason I am sharing this is to illustrate something very important in weapons collecting. I discovered many years ago that the true adventure is not only holding a piece of history in your hands, but to learn the stories the weapon has to tell. Though I do not have a Syrian sabre in my hands, through the pictures of the two you have acquired, I have gone on a terrific adventure just reading briefly on Arabia, its history and about the Bedouin tribes. Complete excitement!!!

Elgood's wonderful writing speaks of the Bedouin tribes, their warfare going into the 30's and for that matter into the 50's, not only still using swords, but even old matchlocks. This goes not at all make these tribal warriors seem backward, but incredibly magnificent and colorful! I could almost see these sabres being packed along in a desert caravan, traded to Bedouin warriors and carried proudly by them into battle.

It is by no means the number of weapons one has in a collection, it is entirely about the relationship between you and the ones you have. These sabres who were quite possibly once the pride of a Bedouin warrior, have found thier way to you, and it is up to you to safely preserve them and thier history.
As I learned very young, it becomes more about the books and the knowledge much, much more than the volume of weapons, or clearly even the weapons themselves.

I think this is best illustrated in the recent post of Gene Beall (Mare Rosu)'s collection, which consists of only seven weapons, but whose magnitude by the beautiful research and cataloguing has made the collection monumental. As he describes, the weapons have become his dear friends, and the rest is.....history.

Happy collecting!! and congratulations on the new little warrior on the way!

Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Gavin,
Nice swords, am looking forward to seeing them cleaned up a little. Really curious as to the 'few other swords'. BTW the forthcoming addition will probably cost you a lot more than your collection ever will, believe me I know.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Gavin Nugent]

They certainly need a good clean but I do beleive the older broader blade is Damascus as are the scabbard fittings. There are 3, what I consider very bad rust spots on the blade but then I guess it is a very old blade and the ravages of time have had their effect. I will if I ever find the time, give these 2 blades a very good clean to see what else can be revealed.
More to follow...

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

After further cleaning, I am curious to know what these 3 indents/dots in the blade mean? They are found on the narrow Shamshir near the guard.

Thanks

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gav,
Looks like things are coming along nicely. The dots, in triple, are something that has come up in discussion occasionally over the years, and appear in variation it seems on some Indian swords. I dont think we have really established if in fact there is distinctly a certain symbolic application as yet, but it would seem with the numeric there may well be.
Perhaps there is a practical explanation, but that is equally elusive.

Just one note on the wiggling lines on the scabbard, these are apparantly typical on scabbards of Bedouin swords from regions into the Sinai.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Gav,
Looks like things are coming along nicely. The dots, in triple, are something that has come up in discussion occasionally over the years, and appear in variation it seems on some Indian swords. I dont think we have really established if in fact there is distinctly a certain symbolic application as yet, but it would seem with the numeric there may well be.
Perhaps there is a practical explanation, but that is equally elusive.

Just one note on the wiggling lines on the scabbard, these are apparantly typical on scabbards of Bedouin swords from regions into the Sinai.

All best regards,
Jim

Thanks Jim, I do wish I had more time though. I would be interested in knowing what is the best cleaning/etching method to bring anything out more these particular blades. Stick with the Ferric or try another line? Also in the image you can see a rather nasty rust glitch, there are several like this on the broad blade on the cutting edge. What would be the best method to conserve these areas.
Interesting statement about the Sinai Jim, it certainly helps with the goegraphy research.

Thanks

Gav

[chevalier]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Gav,
Looks like things are coming along nicely. The dots, in triple, are something that has come up in discussion occasionally over the years, and appear in variation it seems on some Indian swords. I dont think we have really established if in fact there is distinctly a certain symbolic application as yet, but it would seem with the numeric there may well be.
Perhaps there is a practical explanation, but that is equally elusive.

Just one note on the wiggling lines on the scabbard, these are apparantly typical on scabbards of Bedouin swords from regions into the Sinai.

All best regards,
Jim

ive seen those "dots" on alot of swords, i thought they where just armorers marks