My Batak Keris...my first post

harimauhk · 25th June 2009, 05:07 AM

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking for a while, and I decided it was finally time to ask Lee if I could participate on this board to share information with (and learn from) the great people here.

I purchased this Batak keris a few months ago. Apparently, it was brought back from the Lake Toba area in the '70s. The blade is supposedly from the 17th century, although I don't know if I believe that. What do you guys think?

Cheers

harimauhk · 25th June 2009, 01:37 PM

A couple more pics...

Emanuel · 25th June 2009, 02:09 PM

Hello Harimauhk,

Welcome to the forum. First thing, this thread is most appropriate in the Keris Warung Kopi, the keris forum. Moderators will quickly move it I imagine.

Second thing is...sorry, you got snookered. This is a tourist keris-like object. The same thing happened with my very first "keris". A "lake Toba" example but with "gold" kinata. I was disgusted when I received it.

Yours has solder applied to the surface to imitate pamor. Tough lesson but that's how it goes.

Third thing...don't let this discourage you

Take the time to read all of the material on this site, there's loads. Then you can purchase a real keris and go on from there.

Regards,
Emanuel

Rick · 25th June 2009, 02:59 PM

Another guilty party here too !

David · 25th June 2009, 03:04 PM

Welcome to the forum Harimauhk. I am afraid that Emmanuel is exactly right. This is a 20th century tourist object and it would be unfair to really call it a keris. I don't mean to be harsh, but it's just the facts. I think most of us have at some point in our collecting careers been taken in a similar matter. I hope it won't turn you off to collecting keris. They are indeed beautiful, wonderful and fascinating things. If you stick around this forum you will no doubt learn much from our large and knowledgeable membership and avoid such a mistake in the future.

David · 25th June 2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Another guilty party here too !

Actually Rick, i think you actually have a real blade there, albeit, not a very good one.

Rick · 25th June 2009, 03:46 PM

True David , but the rest is quite similar .

harimauhk · 25th June 2009, 04:24 PM

Thanks guys! I actually had no idea it was a tourist item. I have a few more keris--hopefully I have at least one good one

Alam Shah · 25th June 2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harimauhk

.. I've been lurking for a while, and I decided it was finally time to ask Lee if I could participate on this board to share information with... Apparently, it was brought back from the Lake Toba area in the '70s. The blade is supposedly from the 17th century, although I don't know if I believe that. What do you guys think?

Hi Harimauhk, welcome to the keris forum

.. I agree with what have been mentioned about your keris. North Sumatra, Medan, Lake Toba area is notorious for selling touristy souvenir kerises.. not a good place to look for real ones, imho.

HughChen · 11th August 2024, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Another guilty party here too !

Hi Rick,

I have a very similar keris like yours. I got it from an auction. It's said to be more than 100 years old!

Rick · 11th August 2024, 05:15 PM

Hello Hugh and welcome to the forums.

You have a real keris blade there, but I don't think you would see a person of the culture wearing this ensemble in public.

As for 100 years that would be doubtful for the dress although I haven't seen many of this dress style in recent years.

As far as the attribution you have been given on this piece goes; we have a saying here; "buy the keris not the story".

We have a very large archive of keris related posts and there is a lot to be learned from doing a search by keyword there, and don't be shy about asking questions.

milandro · 12th August 2024, 09:24 AM

Hugh, these hilts and sarongs are often made to entice non Indonesians.

Mostly sold outside Bali as being Balinese but aside from a general sarong shape resembling the Balinese ones they feature almost invariably blades of East Javanese origin. The blade may even be old but hardly ever of any quality.

I have seen them also in the form of man and woman hilts ( sold together) and the seller was telling me that he had got them on Bali and that they were wedding krises. They are very crudely made en the embossing is very superficial and undefiled. The shape is almost cylindrical.

There are currently several examples on Etsy but we are not permitted to show krises that are in an active sale or auction.

HughChen · 30th August 2024, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hello Hugh and welcome to the forums.

You have a real keris blade there, but I don't think you would see a person of the culture wearing this ensemble in public.

As for 100 years that would be doubtful for the dress although I haven't seen many of this dress style in recent years.

As far as the attribution you have been given on this piece goes; we have a saying here; "buy the keris not the story".

We have a very large archive of keris related posts and there is a lot to be learned from doing a search by keyword there, and don't be shy about asking questions.

Thank you Rick, there's one thing about the forum that I've always wanted to say, which is that many contents (#1-#4) in one of your excellent pinned thread 'classics' have become invisible. I don't know the reason. This is a great pity for beginners like me.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3938

HughChen · 30th August 2024, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

Hugh, these hilts and sarongs are often made to entice non Indonesians.

Mostly sold outside Bali as being Balinese but aside from a general sarong shape resembling the Balinese ones they feature almost invariably blades of East Javanese origin. The blade may even be old but hardly ever of any quality.

I have seen them also in the form of man and woman hilts ( sold together) and the seller was telling me that he had got them on Bali and that they were wedding krises. They are very crudely made en the embossing is very superficial and undefiled. The shape is almost cylindrical.

There are currently several examples on Etsy but we are not permitted to show krises that are in an active sale or auction.

Mine is not exactly cylindrical, the facial part is protruding. I'm sad to hear this because I paid a lot of money for this kris. And I can only find a similar one here in this forum by google search, I cannot find a similar one anywhere else.

milandro · 30th August 2024, 12:00 PM

I am sorry to say that most beginners ( I am one too) incur this kind of mistakes. It's learning money one pays.

Similar krises are, every now and again, offered in the NL ( a country which for historical reasons has connections to Indonesia) on secondhand sites.
You will find some similar things on Etsy sometimes.

The reason why content has disappeared is that the links have become dead. This can have several reasons but the main is that they were images which were not uploaded on this forum but only linked with a link to an external source.
That is the reason why it is no longer allowed to do that.

HughChen · 30th August 2024, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I am sorry to say that most beginners ( I am one too) incur this kind of mistakes. It's learning money one pays.

Similar krises are, every now and again, offered in the NL ( a country which for historical reasons has connections to Indonesia) on secondhand sites.
You will find some similar things on Etsy sometimes.

The reason why content has disappeared is that the links have become dead. This can have several reasons but the main is that they were images which were not uploaded on this forum but only linked with a link to an external source.
That is the reason why it is no longer allowed to do that.

Thank you Milandro, I heard that Keris are very cheap and in big amount in NL, which is definitely a very good thing for collectors.

David · 30th August 2024, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HughChen

Thank you Milandro, I heard that Keris are very cheap and in big amount in NL, which is definitely a very good thing for collectors.

I don't believe you will find GOOD keris very cheap anywhere, not even NL. Of course there are still bargains to be found from time to time, sleeper auctions that somehow get overlooked, but i wouldn't expect to find good keris at low prices these days. If you find something really inexpensive in a public sale question it fully. There is probably a reason for that low price that might not be obvious at first.

A. G. Maisey · 30th August 2024, 09:44 PM

Once upon a time it might have been possible to obtain old and good keris at reasonable prices in Holland and also in adjacent countries. I have not seen any evidence of this in a very long time, and in fact I know several very experienced collectors who regularly buy from countries that might not be thought of as sources for keris.

HughChen · 31st August 2024, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I don't believe you will find GOOD keris very cheap anywhere, not even NL. Of course there are still bargains to be found from time to time, sleeper auctions that somehow get overlooked, but i wouldn't expect to find good keris at low prices these days. If you find something really inexpensive in a public sale question it fully. There is probably a reason for that low price that might not be obvious at first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Once upon a time it might have been possible to obtain old and good keris at reasonable prices in Holland and also in adjacent countries. I have not seen any evidence of this in a very long time, and in fact I know several very experienced collectors who regularly buy from countries that might not be thought of as sources for keris.

Thank you for you updated information, which successfully prevents me from planing a trip to NL!

David · 31st August 2024, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HughChen

Thank you for you updated information, which successfully prevents me from planing a trip to NL!

Well surely there are other reasons to visit the Netherlands beyond purchasing keris. LOL!
Actually museums there have some of the largest collections of fine keris to be found anywhere in the world, so it would certainly be a good place to study some fine old keris, even if you cannot buy them.

HughChen · 1st September 2024, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well surely there are other reasons to visit the Netherlands beyond purchasing keris. LOL!
Actually museums there have some of the largest collections of fine keris to be found anywhere in the world, so it would certainly be a good place to study some fine old keris, even if you cannot buy them.

Sounds good ! Can anyone here can share a guide / itinerary/ map about Keris trip on NL

werecow · 1st September 2024, 12:00 PM

I don't have an itinerary but if you find yourself near here I would suggest a stop at the Wereldmuseum (i.e.: World Museum, formerly Museum of Ethnology) here in Leiden. And iirc the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam has a few on display as well.

HughChen · 6th September 2024, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

I don't have an itinerary but if you find yourself near here I would suggest a stop at the Wereldmuseum (i.e.: World Museum, formerly Museum of Ethnology) here in Leiden. And iirc the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam has a few on display as well.

Thank you !

milandro · 6th September 2024, 10:06 AM

don't expect to find huge collections on display, there are a few here and there (as mentioned above) but there isn't a specific keris museum. The Ethnological museum of Leiden and the Tropenmuseum of Amsterdam and the Mauritshuis in the Hague have a certain amount of krises on display but they have much more in the vaults that aren't accessible to the public.

There used to be a Nusantara Museum in Delft (a private museum I believe) with a large collection but that museum no longer exists(closed in 2013) and it is not clear (to me) where the collection went.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Nusantara

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eMD5CKOHjU&t=44s

25th June 2009, 01:37 PM	#2
harimauhk Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 88	A couple more pics... Attached Images

25th June 2009, 05:07 AM	#1
harimauhk Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 88	My Batak Keris...my first post Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a while, and I decided it was finally time to ask Lee if I could participate on this board to share information with (and learn from) the great people here. I purchased this Batak keris a few months ago. Apparently, it was brought back from the Lake Toba area in the '70s. The blade is supposedly from the 17th century, although I don't know if I believe that. What do you guys think? Cheers Attached Images

25th June 2009, 02:09 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Harimauhk, Welcome to the forum. First thing, this thread is most appropriate in the Keris Warung Kopi, the keris forum. Moderators will quickly move it I imagine. Second thing is...sorry, you got snookered. This is a tourist keris-like object. The same thing happened with my very first "keris". A "lake Toba" example but with "gold" kinata. I was disgusted when I received it. Yours has solder applied to the surface to imitate pamor. Tough lesson but that's how it goes. Third thing...don't let this discourage you Take the time to read all of the material on this site, there's loads. Then you can purchase a real keris and go on from there. Regards, Emanuel

25th June 2009, 02:59 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Another guilty party here too ! Attached Images

25th June 2009, 03:04 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	Welcome to the forum Harimauhk. I am afraid that Emmanuel is exactly right. This is a 20th century tourist object and it would be unfair to really call it a keris. I don't mean to be harsh, but it's just the facts. I think most of us have at some point in our collecting careers been taken in a similar matter. I hope it won't turn you off to collecting keris. They are indeed beautiful, wonderful and fascinating things. If you stick around this forum you will no doubt learn much from our large and knowledgeable membership and avoid such a mistake in the future.

25th June 2009, 03:46 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	True David , but the rest is quite similar .

25th June 2009, 04:24 PM	#8
harimauhk Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 88	Thanks guys! I actually had no idea it was a tourist item. I have a few more keris--hopefully I have at least one good one

11th August 2024, 05:15 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hello Hugh and welcome to the forums. You have a real keris blade there, but I don't think you would see a person of the culture wearing this ensemble in public. As for 100 years that would be doubtful for the dress although I haven't seen many of this dress style in recent years. As far as the attribution you have been given on this piece goes; we have a saying here; "buy the keris not the story". We have a very large archive of keris related posts and there is a lot to be learned from doing a search by keyword there, and don't be shy about asking questions.

12th August 2024, 09:24 AM	#12
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	Hugh, these hilts and sarongs are often made to entice non Indonesians. Mostly sold outside Bali as being Balinese but aside from a general sarong shape resembling the Balinese ones they feature almost invariably blades of East Javanese origin. The blade may even be old but hardly ever of any quality. I have seen them also in the form of man and woman hilts ( sold together) and the seller was telling me that he had got them on Bali and that they were wedding krises. They are very crudely made en the embossing is very superficial and undefiled. The shape is almost cylindrical. There are currently several examples on Etsy but we are not permitted to show krises that are in an active sale or auction.

30th August 2024, 12:00 PM	#15
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	I am sorry to say that most beginners ( I am one too) incur this kind of mistakes. It's learning money one pays. Similar krises are, every now and again, offered in the NL ( a country which for historical reasons has connections to Indonesia) on secondhand sites. You will find some similar things on Etsy sometimes. The reason why content has disappeared is that the links have become dead. This can have several reasons but the main is that they were images which were not uploaded on this forum but only linked with a link to an external source. That is the reason why it is no longer allowed to do that.

30th August 2024, 09:44 PM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,884	Once upon a time it might have been possible to obtain old and good keris at reasonable prices in Holland and also in adjacent countries. I have not seen any evidence of this in a very long time, and in fact I know several very experienced collectors who regularly buy from countries that might not be thought of as sources for keris.

1st September 2024, 12:00 PM	#22
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 493	I don't have an itinerary but if you find yourself near here I would suggest a stop at the Wereldmuseum (i.e.: World Museum, formerly Museum of Ethnology) here in Leiden. And iirc the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam has a few on display as well.

6th September 2024, 10:06 AM	#24
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	don't expect to find huge collections on display, there are a few here and there (as mentioned above) but there isn't a specific keris museum. The Ethnological museum of Leiden and the Tropenmuseum of Amsterdam and the Mauritshuis in the Hague have a certain amount of krises on display but they have much more in the vaults that aren't accessible to the public. There used to be a Nusantara Museum in Delft (a private museum I believe) with a large collection but that museum no longer exists(closed in 2013) and it is not clear (to me) where the collection went. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Nusantara https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eMD5CKOHjU&t=44s