Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

[Gustav]

Dear All,

I would much appreciate your thoughts on this one. Actually quality/state of preservation of the blade wasn't acceptable for me, yet the whole was so interesting, that I decided to go for it.

The blade is 32,5 cm long, pesi 5,2 cm. If pesi was cut, it happened a long time ago, there are no signs of this procedure left. The blade fits perfectly in the sheath, at the mouth of the sheath as well as in the length.

There was a lot of rust between blade and Gonjo, Gonjo has been pushed down about 1 mm down the Pesi.

The mounts becouse of the finial (buntut) could be atributed to Kedah (this sultanate interests me more and more; I would like to open a separate thread on Keris from there). Sampir is made from black, very dense wood (Kenaung?).

My general question is the provenance of the blade: is this an older javanese blade, or could it perhaps be an old peninsular blade, perhaps a proto-Malela blade? I am really interested in all aspects of "this is so, becouse" regarding it.

My thoughts are:

the pamor looks Javanese;

the blade in current state is to short for a Javanese blade, as is the Pesi;

Ricikan look very Javanese, yet the protruding tip at the Gandhik side of Gonjo is perhaps a little bit strange.

As I said, I am interested in every aspect regarding this keris.

[Gustav]

More pictures:

[T. Koch]

Compaired to some of you guys I know almost nothing about keris and I unfortunately can't help you, but I wanted to say that I really really like it - it really touches me in a way that few keris do. The dapur (that's the shape, right?) has a great smoothness to it, very graceful. The carved groove in the middle, which I don't know the name of, fits in really well too! The ivory hilt is just icing on the cake.

Cheers and enjoy, - Thor

[T. Koch]

Is it elephant or whale btw?

[Sajen]

Hello Gustav,

very interesting keris, congrats! Not sure if the blade is javanese. I see also Madura and Minang features, or I am wrong? Can you post pictures from the blade alone that we can see the pesi?

Thor, handle material is clearly hippo ivory IMHO.

Regards,

Detlef

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

handle material is clearly hippo ivory IMHO.

I am missing the typical spots along the crack - hippo has been quite commonly used with peninsular and Sumatran hilts though. Maybe some more pics could help, Gustav?

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,


I am missing the typical spots along the crack - hippo has been quite commonly used with peninsular and Sumatran hilts though. Maybe some more pics could help, Gustav?

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

I think that I see exactly this at the 5. picture from the up. Maybe Gustav can confirm.

Regards,

Detlef

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Congrats, nice score! I also do like the selut: quality seems quite above average!

Actually quality/state of preservation of the blade wasn't acceptable for me, yet the whole was so interesting, that I decided to go for it.

The blade doesn't look bad to me - quite some substance left, it seems?

IMVHO the ricikan look a bit rudimentary and were possibly never up to Jawa kraton quality standards though - however, this picture might change if you hypothesize major loss due to edge corrosion/repair...

The blade is 32,5 cm long, pesi 5,2 cm. If pesi was cut, it happened a long time ago, there are no signs of this procedure left.

Would also like to see the pesi!

The blade fits perfectly in the sheath, at the mouth of the sheath as well as in the length.

To me the crosspiece looks like a somewhat later replacement - how does it look inside?

Sampir is made from black, very dense wood (Kenaung?).

Are you sure this isn't dyed wood?

My general question is the provenance of the blade: is this an older javanese blade, or could it perhaps be an old peninsular blade, perhaps a proto-Malela blade?

It's not a Malela blade. I believe Detlef may be up to something: size and dhapur would fit quite well with Minang Kabau esthetics; also a wavy gonjo and Javanese-inspired ricikan (and pamor) are not that rare with Minang keris.

I wouldn't be surprised if this were a N Malay keris blade crafted with heavy Minang influence. Expat Minang have had quite a bit of social/political influence regionally (in Negri Sembilan).

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

Thor, thank you for the enthusiastic comments. Here a good source for names of different features on a Keris blade:

http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

Thank you very much for your comments, Detlef and Kai. Regarding the everlasting question "hippo or elephant", I must admit, I gave up this subject a time ago. May be I am not talented enough for it . There is a line of dots (or more precisely, a few dots on a line), which are not so distinct as on another hilt I have, which is sea ivory for sure.

A good thread regarding ivory:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=ivory

Tomorrov I will take a few more pictures of hilt and Pesi.

Kai:

the Ricikan was never Javanese first class standard on this blade for sure. This is an average blade.

Pesi: tomorrow, if it's not snowing.

Sampir: this was my suspicion also, before I received it. The wood is very dense; its quite dark, black where the oiled blade touched it, and it surely is old.

Blade: I never said, it is a Malela blade. It has Pamor. What I ment is:

IF it isn't a Javanese blade, IF it is a N. Malay Peninsula blade, and IF it is an older one, this MAYBE could be a form, which participated to the development of Malela blades. I feel something like this looking on the famous Paul's 13 Luk Malela blade, which is more on Javanese side then most Malela blades (Poyuhan, lack of Bugis type Gandhik), and which perhaps shares a few superficial similarities with my village quality specimen.

I think, you and Detlef are wright about certain Minang traits. Yet I also suppose, the Minang Keris (which is a deep mystery for me) was influenced or created by a Javanese form. And perhaps Peninsula was reached by both forms, this particular Javanese and Minang? Speculations, speculations...

[Henk]

Read these two threads.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14882
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4802

[Gustav]

Here are the pictures of the hilt and Pesi.

Thank you for the links, Henk. May I ask you to explain your points please?

[T. Koch]

Hi Gustav! Thank you so much for the diagrams with the keris nomenclature - they have been added to my ever growing library. Regarding the material of the hilt, I would need sharper pictures to comfortably be able to give you my opinion on it, so I'll just say that I think it looks beautiful. I am really a sucker for stained ivory and your hilt has this wonderful warmness to it.

Hi kai, I see the little row of spots that you mention. I've heard before that hippo ivory should have such spotted lines, but never more than anecdotal information. Do you by any chance have a reference in this regard? I would love the chance to seek out the source.


Cordially, - Thor

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, I am quite comfortable in saying that this blade is not from Jawa nor is it from Madura. Some of the characteristics do have a Madura appearance, but overall there is too much variation from Madura for it to fit this classification.
I do not wish to speculate on origin, but I do have a keris with very closely similar material and blade garap, ie, discounting the work in the sorsoran, and it was collected in Patani around 1920

[Gustav]

Alan, thank you very much for the clarification, I really needed it.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Hi Gustav! Thank you so much for the diagrams with the keris nomenclature - they have been added to my ever growing library. Regarding the material of the hilt, I would need sharper pictures to comfortably be able to give you my opinion on it, so I'll just say that I think it looks beautiful. I am really a sucker for stained ivory and your hilt has this wonderful warmness to it.

Hi kai, I see the little row of spots that you mention. I've heard before that hippo ivory should have such spotted lines, but never more than anecdotal information. Do you by any chance have a reference in this regard? I would love the chance to seek out the source.


Cordially, - Thor

Hello Thor,

here a picture from a cross section through a hippo tooth where you clearly see the row of black spots. And now have a look to the picture Gustav posted.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Here are the pictures of the hilt and Pesi.

Thank you for posting the pictures, agree, the pesi (and the blade) don't look like a Jawa one. Pesi look like of some of my Miang blades. Maybe Kai have given the direction.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually, the pesi fits well within the parameters for both Javanese and Madura keris.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually, the pesi fits well within the parameters for both Javanese and Madura keris.

Hello Alan,

not to short and bulky?

[A. G. Maisey]

For a full size, normal Surakarta pakem keris the tang should be between 7cm. and 7.5cm.

But there is a great deal of variation possible when we move away from Surakarta and into other parts of Jawa, other districts, other Kraton standards, villages with no real standards, other time periods.

Madura tangs often display a smaller diameter directly above the gonjo, and bear evidence of a punch being used to tighten the gonjo to the pesi, this keris of Gustav's appears to have a hint of this narrowing and there might be traces of a punch being used --- but this is not sufficient to over-rule the things that say it is not Madura.

This is a small keris:- it will have a shorter pesi than the norm.

Madura keris usually have a longer pesi than Jawa mainland keris (Madura is a part of East Jawa --- something many people tend to forget).

In a quality Javanese keris the pesi will be substantial. The reason people think of Jawa keris as having spindly pesi is because usually we only see very sub-standard Javanese keris and usually those keris are in poor to extremely poor condition. Good quality Javanese keris are not flimsy, especially if they are relatively recent, say within the last 200-300 years, and in good condition..

[Sajen]

Alan,

thank you very much for this detailed execution.

Regards,

Detlef

[Henk]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Thank you for the links, Henk. May I ask you to explain your points please?

Sorry for the late answer.

I explained in these links that in the Sumatra area the javanese keris was highly sought after. Sailors brought javanese blades back from their trading journeys and blacksmiths started making keris after javanese examples.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Henk

Sorry for the late answer.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

Thank you for the reply, Henk. Exactly that was my starting position.

[David]

Originally Posted by Henk

Sorry for the late answer.

I explained in these links that in the Sumatra area the javanese keris was highly sought after. Sailors brought javanese blades back from their trading journeys and blacksmiths started making keris after javanese examples.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

While i don't automatically agree with everything Mr. Maisey has to say, if there is one thing i do consider him expert in it is the Javanese keris, as he has made it a lifetime's study and is the only member here that i am aware of who apprenticed to a kraton mpu. So i am likely to accept his position stated in post #13 that this blade is not from Jawa or Madura.

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, I have already stated that I am quite comfortable in my opinion that this is not a keris that was made in Jawa.

I am very seldom positive in my opinions unless I have good reason to be so, however, it is an opinion I have given, and any opinion from any person can be incorrect.

The link between various areas in Sumatra and Jawa is well known; the political links between Palembang and the House of Mataram is well known; the trade in Javanese blades throughout South East Asia is well known; the propensity of local smiths in areas outside Jawa to copy Javanese workmanship is well known. Nothing new in any of this.The trade in Javanese blades was well established by the 16th century, and is mentioned in the Book of Duarte Barbosa.

But when we look at a keris, we need to be able to do a lot better than just say:- "oh yes, its Javanese", or "oh yes, it could be Javanese".

We need to be able to say from where in Jawa it originated and at approximately what time. We need to be able to give it at the very least an approximate classification.

With the blade in question, although there are certain characteristics that have a Javanese quality to them, such as the gonjo, and a Madurese quality, such as the kembang kacang, the sogokan is not Javanese in nature, and especially the poyuhan is very uncharacteristic of Javanese garap. The pawakan is not characteristic of Javanese work, and the greneng, most especially the ron dha looks as if it has been cut by a blind man with palsy. It is terrible --- if we consider it as Javanese --- but for many of the other places where greneng and ron dha appear it is quite a usual representation. This is because in those other places the makers did not really understand the iconography of the greneng and the ron dha:- like virtually all people outside the pande clan, all they saw was a series of notches.

However, we can ignore all of that, and just look at the nature of the pamor and the exposure of the core of the blade. The way in which this has been done is something I have never seen in a Javanese blade, this has distinctly Bugis characteristics.

As I have said:- I have given an opinion, and any opinion can be wrong, but in this case I would need one hell of a lot of convincing that this opinion of mine is wrong.

[Henk]

Alan,

I'm very glad with your explanation. You put it just in the way what i have in my mind. I completeley agree with you.
Your skills and education in keris as your native tongue can nail this issue way better down than i can. If i have to write down what you did it would take me a lot of time more. Time is at the moment very limited for me.

I was a bit short in my answer and i'm very glad you gave the arguments i should have done.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Henk

Alan,

I'm very glad with your explanation. You put it just in the way what i have in my mind. I completeley agree with you.

I was a bit short in my answer and i'm very glad you gave the arguments i should have done.

Henk, if this is so: I would be very thankful, if you could find some more time and comment on this blade, which also looks Javanese and also is mounted in Kedah dress. I would much appreciate your oppinion, put in a few necessary words.

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Nice.
Looks again like a locally crafted blade to me.

Sorry for coming back to this thread late - will add more comments later. Please add a few pics of the whole keris for future reference, too.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, is it possible to provide a clearer image of the greneng?

[Gustav]

Kai, Alan, thank you for your answers. This Keris is not mine, it's depicted in both Jensens book and Krisdisk (chapter 10, page 32). Length of the blade 36,6 cm. Unfortunately no better pictures of Grenend there.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Gustav. Yes, I see what you mean.