Interesting kaskara with brass hilt and rounded tip

Iain · 13th December 2011, 12:58 PM

This recently sold at auction in the UK, did a forumite get it by any chance? It fetched quite the price. Scabbard is silver according to the auction description.

Has this style been identified with a particular area or time period? It is certainly quite different from the usual styles of either the Beja swords or the Darfur examples. In fact in some ways it is closer to a takouba with a bulbous pommel and rounded tip...

I'm aware of a similar piece in the American Museum of Natural History collections, but don't recall off hand any other examples like this (although I am sure there are).

Anyone have insights into this?

stephen wood · 13th December 2011, 08:03 PM

...how much did it go for Iain? (am I allowed to ask?

)

Iain · 13th December 2011, 08:10 PM

Just in case my initial post wasn't clear, I didn't win it (or even bid!), but the sale price inclusive of premium was £2,160.

More than a little out of my league. I'm not even sure if the price wasn't more for the throwing knives... I gather they are quite rare.

Any thoughts on on regional or ethnic classification for the sword? I find it quite different visually to the examples usually encountered, particularly the blade geometry.

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2011, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

...how much did it go for Iain? (am I allowed to ask?

)

Is that it? how much???? What about thoughts on period (Mahdiyya) or more on regional possibilities

stephen wood · 14th December 2011, 12:15 AM

Sorry Jim

Here's the provenance:

"...joining the Sudan Political Service in 1907. In 1912 he married Lilian Constance Bagot daughter of The Rev. G.P. Dew and in 1917 became a barrister at Gray s Inn. Between 1918 and 1923 he served in Baghdad first as President of the Court of First Instance and then as President of the Court of Appeal. In 1923 he returned to the Sudan as Judge of the High Court - having been appointed a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) in that year - and became Chief Justice of the Sudan in 1926; he received the insignia of the second class of the Order of the Nile from the King of Egypt in 1929. Between 1930 and 1936 he served as Legal Secretary to the Government of the Sudan after which he retired being created a Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire (KBE) in 1937."

Note the cast, yellow metal guard - often seen on the swords with thuluth blades and mushroom pommels.

Atlantia · 14th December 2011, 01:41 AM

What a magnificent sword. Do you have any other pictures of it Iain? It would be nice to see close ups of the decoration on the hilt and scabbard.
The quality looks excellent at this distance.

Edster · 14th December 2011, 03:12 AM

Very nice sword. My guess it was made in Egypt as a presentation piece. Makers used Mamluk style grip and cross guard to simulate a Sudanese kaskara. Virtually no design elements suggest to me a Sudanese origin.

Regards,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 14th December 2011, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

Sorry Jim

Here's the provenance:

"...joining the Sudan Political Service in 1907. In 1912 he married Lilian Constance Bagot daughter of The Rev. G.P. Dew and in 1917 became a barrister at Gray s Inn. Between 1918 and 1923 he served in Baghdad first as President of the Court of First Instance and then as President of the Court of Appeal. In 1923 he returned to the Sudan as Judge of the High Court - having been appointed a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) in that year - and became Chief Justice of the Sudan in 1926; he received the insignia of the second class of the Order of the Nile from the King of Egypt in 1929. Between 1930 and 1936 he served as Legal Secretary to the Government of the Sudan after which he retired being created a Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire (KBE) in 1937."

Note the cast, yellow metal guard - often seen on the swords with thuluth blades and mushroom pommels.

Thanks Stephen!!! Thats more better!!!!

I think these presentation type pieces took on quite more elaborate character during the British occupation of both Egypt and Sudan post Omdurman and as noted by provenance much later.

All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 14th December 2011, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Very nice sword. My guess it was made in Egypt as a presentation piece. Makers used Mamluk style grip and cross guard to simulate a Sudanese kaskara. Virtually no design elements suggest to me a Sudanese origin.

Regards,
Ed

Ah, I thought that at a distance the metalwork on the hilt looked Egyptian. Be interesting to compare the decoration with other pieces of that period.
Anyone got a link to the auction pictures?

Iain · 14th December 2011, 12:50 PM

Sadly that was the only auction picture I'm aware of. I'd forgotten to include the provenance, thanks Stephen.

I'd also wondered about an Egyptian connection, the style does seem fairly classic Mamluk? In particular the scabbard construction is certainly not normal for Sudanese swords.

If these are presentation pieces... I have to wonder if they are entirely from the early 20th century to cater to British tastes... Or if there is some old example which could give some insight instead into the influences the Sudanese swords themselves draw on? The question of course is, was the example in this thread made for the British gentleman who took it home? Or something older...

Here is the other example of the style I'm aware of - from the AMNH online collections. Donated to the museum in 1974. Interestingly there seems to be a engraving or stamp on the blade near the guard.

Gavin Nugent · 14th December 2011, 03:26 PM

Here are some hilt detail images, I hope they help your discussions.

Iain · 14th December 2011, 04:14 PM

Thanks Gav, that answers a lot of questions for me. The entire thing looks rather new...

I guess then this was a "made for export" item. Still an interesting hybrid of influences.

Lew · 14th December 2011, 04:39 PM

Iian

I remember seeing an old picture of one of the Egyptian Pashas with this type of sword. I will look for it in my archives.

Iain · 14th December 2011, 04:42 PM

Thanks Lew, would be very interested to see that! A small flicker of hope remains then there is something more to this style.

Atlantia · 14th December 2011, 05:00 PM

Well done Gav.

This is interesting. I don't immediately recognise the decoration as Egyptian work now that I can see it more clearly.
In fact it reminds me more of the style of decoration sometimes seen on the brasswork of Telek daggers.

The close-up also seems to show an abnormally long tang with two or is it three? pegs running almost to the top of the hilt.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2011, 07:57 AM

This sword seems to be a ceremonial or diplomatic item which reflects influences of domed type pommels on some swords hilted in San'a or perhaps Hadhramaut in Yemen. In the time of the Anglo-Egyptian condominium the British Protectorate of Aden in Arabia included these regions, which were in turn of course connected to Khedival Egypt and the Sudan.

Iain, the example you show in post #10 has scabbard mounts very similar to sa'ifs mounted in Hadhramaut.

The kaskara style in the remainder of the hilt is evident.

The two knives are Kpinga from the Azande of S.Sudan in form and again evidently produced in embellished form for probably diplomatic purposes as gifts and representative in grouping of traditional weapons.

Gav, thanks for the extra images!!!

Heres on from Michael Blalock (2009) from a shop in San'a

Iain · 16th December 2011, 01:03 PM

Hi Jim,

Many thanks for this, that certainly seems to explain this particular item. From the photo of Michael's it looks like similar styles extended around the Gulf.

Again, many thanks for the notes on this. :-)

Iain

Wodimi · 18th December 2011, 11:16 PM

Regarding the two throwing knifes, which belong to this sword lot. They are also a bit strange and not decorated in the traditional style. The shape is the shape from the two main typs of the Ingessana throwing knifes, one the so called sai ("serpent") and the other typ called ("muder"), the scorpion. But incised patterns on the blade's surface represent normal a snake, lizard, and spider and a scorpion in the second case and not this animal (maybe lion) we can see on the blades. So they are for sure not produced for the Ingessana.

Iain · 20th December 2011, 11:38 AM

Thanks for the additional closeup photos of the knives. I think it is pretty easy to see the quality of the work and if I am not mistaken the execution of the shape and form of the knives (not just the engraving) looks a little "off" as well.

Personally I find it fascinating that a "weapons for tourists" industry sprang up so quickly and from outside the ethnic origins of the weapons themselves.

13th December 2011, 08:10 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Just in case my initial post wasn't clear, I didn't win it (or even bid!), but the sale price inclusive of premium was £2,160. More than a little out of my league. I'm not even sure if the price wasn't more for the throwing knives... I gather they are quite rare. Any thoughts on on regional or ethnic classification for the sword? I find it quite different visually to the examples usually encountered, particularly the blade geometry. Last edited by Iain; 13th December 2011 at 09:14 PM.

14th December 2011, 12:15 AM	#5
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Sorry Jim Here's the provenance: "...joining the Sudan Political Service in 1907. In 1912 he married Lilian Constance Bagot daughter of The Rev. G.P. Dew and in 1917 became a barrister at Gray s Inn. Between 1918 and 1923 he served in Baghdad first as President of the Court of First Instance and then as President of the Court of Appeal. In 1923 he returned to the Sudan as Judge of the High Court - having been appointed a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) in that year - and became Chief Justice of the Sudan in 1926; he received the insignia of the second class of the Order of the Nile from the King of Egypt in 1929. Between 1930 and 1936 he served as Legal Secretary to the Government of the Sudan after which he retired being created a Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire (KBE) in 1937." Note the cast, yellow metal guard - often seen on the swords with thuluth blades and mushroom pommels. Last edited by stephen wood; 14th December 2011 at 01:36 AM.

14th December 2011, 01:41 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	What a magnificent sword. Do you have any other pictures of it Iain? It would be nice to see close ups of the decoration on the hilt and scabbard. The quality looks excellent at this distance. Last edited by Atlantia; 14th December 2011 at 12:29 PM.

14th December 2011, 03:26 PM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	hilt detail Here are some hilt detail images, I hope they help your discussions. Attached Images

16th December 2011, 07:57 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This sword seems to be a ceremonial or diplomatic item which reflects influences of domed type pommels on some swords hilted in San'a or perhaps Hadhramaut in Yemen. In the time of the Anglo-Egyptian condominium the British Protectorate of Aden in Arabia included these regions, which were in turn of course connected to Khedival Egypt and the Sudan. Iain, the example you show in post #10 has scabbard mounts very similar to sa'ifs mounted in Hadhramaut. The kaskara style in the remainder of the hilt is evident. The two knives are Kpinga from the Azande of S.Sudan in form and again evidently produced in embellished form for probably diplomatic purposes as gifts and representative in grouping of traditional weapons. Gav, thanks for the extra images!!! Heres on from Michael Blalock (2009) from a shop in San'a Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th December 2011 at 08:12 AM.

13th December 2011, 12:58 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Interesting kaskara with brass hilt and rounded tip This recently sold at auction in the UK, did a forumite get it by any chance? It fetched quite the price. Scabbard is silver according to the auction description. Has this style been identified with a particular area or time period? It is certainly quite different from the usual styles of either the Beja swords or the Darfur examples. In fact in some ways it is closer to a takouba with a bulbous pommel and rounded tip... I'm aware of a similar piece in the American Museum of Natural History collections, but don't recall off hand any other examples like this (although I am sure there are). Anyone have insights into this? Attached Images Last edited by Iain; 13th December 2011 at 09:15 PM.

13th December 2011, 08:03 PM	#2
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...how much did it go for Iain? (am I allowed to ask? )

14th December 2011, 03:12 AM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Very nice sword. My guess it was made in Egypt as a presentation piece. Makers used Mamluk style grip and cross guard to simulate a Sudanese kaskara. Virtually no design elements suggest to me a Sudanese origin. Regards, Ed

14th December 2011, 12:50 PM	#10
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Sadly that was the only auction picture I'm aware of. I'd forgotten to include the provenance, thanks Stephen. I'd also wondered about an Egyptian connection, the style does seem fairly classic Mamluk? In particular the scabbard construction is certainly not normal for Sudanese swords. If these are presentation pieces... I have to wonder if they are entirely from the early 20th century to cater to British tastes... Or if there is some old example which could give some insight instead into the influences the Sudanese swords themselves draw on? The question of course is, was the example in this thread made for the British gentleman who took it home? Or something older... Here is the other example of the style I'm aware of - from the AMNH online collections. Donated to the museum in 1974. Interestingly there seems to be a engraving or stamp on the blade near the guard. Attached Images

14th December 2011, 04:14 PM	#12
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Thanks Gav, that answers a lot of questions for me. The entire thing looks rather new... I guess then this was a "made for export" item. Still an interesting hybrid of influences.

14th December 2011, 04:39 PM	#13
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Iian I remember seeing an old picture of one of the Egyptian Pashas with this type of sword. I will look for it in my archives.

14th December 2011, 04:42 PM	#14
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Thanks Lew, would be very interested to see that! A small flicker of hope remains then there is something more to this style.

14th December 2011, 05:00 PM	#15
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well done Gav. This is interesting. I don't immediately recognise the decoration as Egyptian work now that I can see it more clearly. In fact it reminds me more of the style of decoration sometimes seen on the brasswork of Telek daggers. The close-up also seems to show an abnormally long tang with two or is it three? pegs running almost to the top of the hilt.

16th December 2011, 01:03 PM	#17
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Jim, Many thanks for this, that certainly seems to explain this particular item. From the photo of Michael's it looks like similar styles extended around the Gulf. Again, many thanks for the notes on this. :-) Iain

18th December 2011, 11:16 PM	#18
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	Regarding the two throwing knifes, which belong to this sword lot. They are also a bit strange and not decorated in the traditional style. The shape is the shape from the two main typs of the Ingessana throwing knifes, one the so called sai ("serpent") and the other typ called ("muder"), the scorpion. But incised patterns on the blade's surface represent normal a snake, lizard, and spider and a scorpion in the second case and not this animal (maybe lion) we can see on the blades. So they are for sure not produced for the Ingessana. Attached Images

20th December 2011, 11:38 AM	#19
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Thanks for the additional closeup photos of the knives. I think it is pretty easy to see the quality of the work and if I am not mistaken the execution of the shape and form of the knives (not just the engraving) looks a little "off" as well. Personally I find it fascinating that a "weapons for tourists" industry sprang up so quickly and from outside the ethnic origins of the weapons themselves.