Scarey knife

Tim Simmons · 16th July 2005, 04:14 PM

I got this knife today when I put some money in a charity box. I find it rather spooky, the crude but purposeful nature has a curious appeal. The blade has been forged, it does not apear to have come from something else. The wood handle has insect damage, wether this was in the wood or has happened since carving I can not tell. The tang has been peened over in a rough fashion. OAL 32cm blade 20 cm. I would say this is African, it cunjures up old images of The Dark Continent. Anyone come across anything like it? Tim

Bill · 16th July 2005, 04:23 PM

I wonder if it started out as a spear head?

Tim Simmons · 16th July 2005, 04:33 PM

That thought had crossed my mind. Thanks Bill. Tim

Andrew · 16th July 2005, 08:03 PM

It looks like a prison "shank", to me, Tim. Why do you think it was forged?

Tim Simmons · 16th July 2005, 08:33 PM

Golly thats even more scarey, I think it is forged? The tang and base of the blade are a little more thick than the blade, which does not show obvious signs of makeshift grinding though the blade is very thin. I could well see this coming from some god forsaken African goal in colonial times. Thanks Andrew, I suppose in your work you see the handicraft of the forlorn

Tim

spiral · 16th July 2005, 08:50 PM

The handle was made or heavily resurfaced after the worm damage as the tracks run along the surface rather than penetrating.

Making a shank in jail or in the poorer parts of Africa is probably very similar.

You use what you can obtain.

The wood doesnt strike me as african though, less it was from a desert region.

Just a feeling, could be wildy wrong.

Spiral

Henk · 16th July 2005, 09:03 PM

A mounted spearblade was my thought to. Are we looking to an african tombak????

Mark · 17th July 2005, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

It looks like a prison "shank", to me, Tim. Why do you think it was forged?

That was my first reaction, too, actually. Nothing in my past ... just a lot of movies and Discovery Channel programs.

Antonio Cejunior · 18th July 2005, 02:30 AM

If I may chime in

I think it is a wonderful piece actually. I like the wood, its flaws but also how it appears to be polished by use.
Having been to Angola (ex-Portuguese colony) and part of the Congo nation, I've seen some spears and machetes that at the time I did not looked with the same eyes as now.
Very interesting piece.

Rick · 18th July 2005, 04:36 AM

I enjoy these 'down and dirty' pieces too , they're very elemental and no doubt belonged to those in the lowest strata of whatever society they lived in .

Tim , from the pictures this dagger looks like it has dull edges ; does it ?

here's a rough and tumble piece from the Philippines .

Tim Simmons · 18th July 2005, 06:14 PM

The edges are dull but the blade is rather thin and a quick scrape with a stone or other hard rough surface would soon produce a cutting edge. There is a good 1/4 inch play on the blade at present, there may have been small wooden pieces inserted either side of the blade at one time to stop this, or it could be wear it is clearly quite old, I do not know. It is interesting that although a nasty rude knife, other people as well as myself and through a PC could also feel its mystique. Thanks Tim

Freddy · 18th July 2005, 07:35 PM

Hi,

I also tend to think it's african, just by looking at its 'crude form'.

In 'Afrikanische Waffen' by Werner Fischer and Manfred A. Zirngibl, there's a picture of a strange looking dagger. According to their sources this knife/spearhead is Bambuti (Mbuti). Page 76, fig. 122

Here is what is written :

The pygmies don't work with metal. Instead, they acquire their knives and spearheads by trading bagged quary for them. The knife shown in fig. 122 is typical. The handle is attached to the shaft of what was likely a spearhead.

The length of this knife is 31 cm, with cord-plaiting on the handle.

Probably your knife could be such a 'recycled' spearhead.

Tim Simmons · 18th July 2005, 07:54 PM

Thanks Freddy, again you have come up with exellent informatiom and I would have to agree the most plausible source of origin

Tim

16th July 2005, 04:14 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Scarey knife I got this knife today when I put some money in a charity box. I find it rather spooky, the crude but purposeful nature has a curious appeal. The blade has been forged, it does not apear to have come from something else. The wood handle has insect damage, wether this was in the wood or has happened since carving I can not tell. The tang has been peened over in a rough fashion. OAL 32cm blade 20 cm. I would say this is African, it cunjures up old images of The Dark Continent. Anyone come across anything like it? Tim Attached Images

16th July 2005, 08:33 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Golly thats even more scarey, I think it is forged? The tang and base of the blade are a little more thick than the blade, which does not show obvious signs of makeshift grinding though the blade is very thin. I could well see this coming from some god forsaken African goal in colonial times. Thanks Andrew, I suppose in your work you see the handicraft of the forlorn Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 16th July 2005 at 08:48 PM.

18th July 2005, 04:36 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Pure Function I enjoy these 'down and dirty' pieces too , they're very elemental and no doubt belonged to those in the lowest strata of whatever society they lived in . Tim , from the pictures this dagger looks like it has dull edges ; does it ? here's a rough and tumble piece from the Philippines . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 18th July 2005 at 04:51 AM.

16th July 2005, 04:23 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I wonder if it started out as a spear head?

16th July 2005, 04:33 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That thought had crossed my mind. Thanks Bill. Tim

16th July 2005, 08:03 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	It looks like a prison "shank", to me, Tim. Why do you think it was forged?

16th July 2005, 08:50 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	The handle was made or heavily resurfaced after the worm damage as the tracks run along the surface rather than penetrating. Making a shank in jail or in the poorer parts of Africa is probably very similar. You use what you can obtain. The wood doesnt strike me as african though, less it was from a desert region. Just a feeling, could be wildy wrong. Spiral

16th July 2005, 09:03 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	A mounted spearblade was my thought to. Are we looking to an african tombak????

18th July 2005, 02:30 AM	#9
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	If I may chime in I think it is a wonderful piece actually. I like the wood, its flaws but also how it appears to be polished by use. Having been to Angola (ex-Portuguese colony) and part of the Congo nation, I've seen some spears and machetes that at the time I did not looked with the same eyes as now. Very interesting piece.

18th July 2005, 06:14 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The edges are dull but the blade is rather thin and a quick scrape with a stone or other hard rough surface would soon produce a cutting edge. There is a good 1/4 inch play on the blade at present, there may have been small wooden pieces inserted either side of the blade at one time to stop this, or it could be wear it is clearly quite old, I do not know. It is interesting that although a nasty rude knife, other people as well as myself and through a PC could also feel its mystique. Thanks Tim

18th July 2005, 07:35 PM	#12
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Hi, I also tend to think it's african, just by looking at its 'crude form'. In 'Afrikanische Waffen' by Werner Fischer and Manfred A. Zirngibl, there's a picture of a strange looking dagger. According to their sources this knife/spearhead is Bambuti (Mbuti). Page 76, fig. 122 Here is what is written : The pygmies don't work with metal. Instead, they acquire their knives and spearheads by trading bagged quary for them. The knife shown in fig. 122 is typical. The handle is attached to the shaft of what was likely a spearhead. The length of this knife is 31 cm, with cord-plaiting on the handle. Probably your knife could be such a 'recycled' spearhead.

18th July 2005, 07:54 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks Freddy, again you have come up with exellent informatiom and I would have to agree the most plausible source of origin Tim