Non european blade on Napoleonic saber

Roland_M · 17th August 2014, 09:18 PM

A napoleonic era "Sabre de cavalerie légère à la Chasseur" with a non european blade from around 1800.
The blade length is 85 cm, the overall length is 98cm and weighs 870g.
The blade is very sure not from Europe. My personal guess is that it was forged in the Ottoman Empire.
It is a pipe back blade with the shape of a turkish kilij and a sharp back edge.

The blade thickness at the beginning of the back edge is only 1.5 mm or 0.059 inch.
Close to the short ricasso the blade thickness is 2 mm. I have read books with rumors about such thin blades, but I could not believe it. Now i have one, still hard to believe, even when I hold it in my hand.
The blade is etched with five moons and a kind of cartouche, picture 3,
I hope this can help to find out more information.
I showed pictures of the blade to a well known german blade smith and he replied (quite euphoric) that it is made from layered steel like japanese katana. Exactly as japanese blades, the saber have a mirror polish, which is almost intact.
The blade was worn over a couple of years (detail in picture 4), probably in the Napoleonic campaigns.
The blade itself have some nicks and it is slightly bended from thrusting (seen from top).

Now the blade rests forever in a carefully made scabbard, which is even in excellent condition.

Together with a real worn mandau (with a hamon like on katana) this is the absolute highlight of my collection.

Thanks for reading and I hope i can read some comments to this blade.

p.s. I'm not sure about the right category, I think the main work of the blade is non european.

Best wishes
Roland M.

TVV · 18th August 2014, 12:55 AM

This is not an Ottoman blade. Looks very European to me.

Teodor

A.alnakkas · 18th August 2014, 01:13 AM

Yes, a lovely European blade that was meant to have a good polish :-)

One of my Qatari friends uses a clauberg for Ardha, he was once cleaning it while etching a wootz blade. Some of the etchant dropped on the clauberg and a pattern like this one appeared. He polished it again, as I dont think those were meant to have such patterns exposed.

Battara · 18th August 2014, 01:20 AM

Could the blade originally be Russian in origin? They did do laminated steel. I am having difficulty seeing if the inscription remnants are Cyrillic or Arabic.

If Arabic, then this could indeed be an old Ottoman shamshir blade reshaped for French(?) use.

ariel · 18th August 2014, 01:49 AM

Solingen did damaskus.

estcrh · 18th August 2014, 02:48 AM

I have never sen an Ottoman kilij that looked anything like this blade, either in the shape or the metal type.

trenchwarfare · 18th August 2014, 04:14 AM

That looks like the Peter Munich "moon". That would put it late 17, early 1800s. Very nice piece.

Battara · 18th August 2014, 05:10 AM

If this is a special damascus German steel blade, what throws me is the remnant inscription on the top left of the close ups.

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2014, 06:49 AM

This extremely attractive sabre is truly an anomaly, mostly due to this blade which appears of laminated or Damascus steel, for me in my limited understanding of metallurgy, a most perplexing subject.

The hilt and scabbard do correspond to the Napoleonic sabre form identified, which is indeed French. The piped back blade, with a stepped back of 'yelman' form (a feature which in degree recalls Turkish blade styles) seems to have been present somewhat during these times. These are invariably European, and seen on British and German blades, and this pipeback, raised tip form seems to have prevailed through the 19th century contemporary with other blade styles.

I agree that as far as I have known, the pipeback feature has never been used on Eastern blade forms, though the Central Asian 'T' section has similarity.

What I think is interesting is that after the Napoleonic campaigns a good number of French weapons were captured by the Russians. Many of these, including these type sabres, were copied and produced at the Zlatoust arms factory.

A ceremonial sabre from Zlatoust is seen with blade having remarkably similar profile with the pipeback and stepped tip (Wagner, 1967, p.455, #155) however this sword's blade is etched with military motif etc. and dates 1821.

It is interesting that the Russian's had for some time had the patterned steel known as bulat. In the early 1800s in France Jean Robert Breant had begun experiments with Damascus steel based much on English work by Faraday.
The Russian work with Damascus was with Petrel Petrovich Anosov but not until mid 19th century.

So the question would be, is this a French sabre as properly identified with a blade experimentally produced through Breant? though I believe most of his work was post Napoleonic 1820s

Or, could this have been a post Napoleonic production from Zlatoust, using perhaps bulat, or similar process?

Then there is the question of the curious five crescent faced moons. While Peter Munsten indeed was one German smith whose blades often had these moons on them, these were primarily 'talismanic ' motif which were used in variation by various smiths and the engravers they used. While the French, as the Germans, used these kinds of motif (not as familiar with Russians but they likely did as well) it seems odd on this type of blade with patterned steel. I am uncertain on the other marking.
These moons and other cosmological and symbolic motif were used through the 18th century, but their use seems to have ceased by early 1800s.

So there remain many questions on this sword, but these details I hope might lead to some productive research and ideas.

Robert · 18th August 2014, 07:49 AM

Because of the interesting questions this sword has raised I have sent a copy of this thread to the European Armoury as well.

Best,
Robert

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2014, 06:33 PM

Excellent to move this to European as there the readers familiar with French and Russian as well as Napoleonic swords will have exposure to this intriguing example.
While the idea of this being possibly Ottoman is interesting, as far as I have known no 'pipeback' form exists on their blades, and this was an entirely European innovation. As I noted earlier the only instance of similar feature was the 'T' back in mostly Central Asian forms. As for the stepped back tip, usually a false edge, this reference to the Ottoman yelman actually does not directly apply, though again a 'similarity'.

I think the primary attraction to this having Eastern potential is of course the type of steel which clearly appears laminated. In that respect the presence of this example here is good as those well versed in metallurgy can respond to that aspect.

Roland_M · 18th August 2014, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

If this is a special damascus German steel blade, what throws me is the remnant inscription on the top left of the close ups.

Hello,
the well known blade smith even works for the Klingenmuseum (Blademuseum) in the famous blade city Solingen. This smith has made a lot of scientific experiments with medieval forging techniques, is very experienced and world wide known. If this is a german blade, he would have said it to me. French blades of this period are much more massive than 1.5 mm. A blade for usage in combat, not just a ceremonial piece.

Oliver Pinchot · 18th August 2014, 07:54 PM

Ariel made an important point above, they certainly did make these blades in Solingen.
I've done my best to tease out whatever that marking is on the blade, couldn't pull anything legible.

Roland_M · 18th August 2014, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Could the blade originally be Russian in origin? They did do laminated steel. I am having difficulty seeing if the inscription remnants are Cyrillic or Arabic.

If Arabic, then this could indeed be an old Ottoman shamshir blade reshaped for French(?) use.

If Russian, then from Zlatoust. Zlatoust weapon factory was founded in 1813. I have a book with the best blades from Zlatoust, see the picture I added. All blades from Zlatoust of this kind are very decorated. Ivan Bushuev is my favorite artist. On page 130 is a similar saber from Wilhelm Schaaf (1820), but it is not made of layered steel. The early blades from Zlatoust made of layered steel are not real, only a surface etching.
This is all I know.

The other book is from the German Blade Museum "damascened steel, history of a legend". Many different german blades made of damascened steel from 18-20th century. None of the blades is similar to this saber.

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2014, 02:20 AM

My comment pointing out a sabre from Zlatoust having a similar tipped and profiled blade which was ceremonial c.1821 was meant to note the presence of that feature there and at this time. I did not mean to imply this example was 'ceremonial', but to offer a comparison in the style.

If I recall correctly this clipped tip style was indeed quite well known in Solingen in the 18th century, and Seifert ("Schwert Degen Sabel",1962) captioned this in a panel of varying sword tip forms as a 'pandour point'.

As has been suggested, the makers in Solingen had known processes such as pattern welding for centuries, but did not largely produce this type of laminated blade typically, as far as I know. I think what is perplexing is the differences between pattern welding, various types of Damascus and wootz, the latter being the focus of many metallurgical experiments in this period (late 18th into 19th). As barely a lay metallurgist I would beg the indulgence of those better versed in this, and appreciate better explanations.

Those crescent moons certainly would offer compelling suggestion of Solingen, and recalling old traditions of multiple use of 'quality' imbuements of early tradition there. Earlier blades often had such marks or makers marks in multiples of three or up to five, presumably increasing the potential imbuement.

I had a deeply curved sabre of about this period c.1800, with distinctly pointed tip, but a profound pipeback, and which I believe was possibly laminated (it was darkly patinated) . This I believed to be British but a German blade.
In the period of 'innovation' when makers were striving for the most effective sword blades, many styles were considered from various cultural considerations, including the kilij, talwar and others. Many early British sabres have a pronounced yelman, and I believe the commanding officer of the 10th Hussars at Waterloo carried a pipeback, yelmaned sabre.

Jim McDougall · 20th August 2014, 07:47 AM

I just posted new information on this thread on the European forum.. please cross reference.

The information I added I believe adds compelling evidence this may indeed be a Solingen blade and supports the suggestions by Oliver and Ariel.

Thank you Roland for adding the additional detail on Zlatoust, indeed a fascinating possibility which may still be connected. It seems there were a number of makers working with watered steel blades at the time.

17th August 2014, 09:18 PM	#1
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Non european blade on Napoleonic saber A napoleonic era "Sabre de cavalerie légère à la Chasseur" with a non european blade from around 1800. The blade length is 85 cm, the overall length is 98cm and weighs 870g. The blade is very sure not from Europe. My personal guess is that it was forged in the Ottoman Empire. It is a pipe back blade with the shape of a turkish kilij and a sharp back edge. The blade thickness at the beginning of the back edge is only 1.5 mm or 0.059 inch. Close to the short ricasso the blade thickness is 2 mm. I have read books with rumors about such thin blades, but I could not believe it. Now i have one, still hard to believe, even when I hold it in my hand. The blade is etched with five moons and a kind of cartouche, picture 3, I hope this can help to find out more information. I showed pictures of the blade to a well known german blade smith and he replied (quite euphoric) that it is made from layered steel like japanese katana. Exactly as japanese blades, the saber have a mirror polish, which is almost intact. The blade was worn over a couple of years (detail in picture 4), probably in the Napoleonic campaigns. The blade itself have some nicks and it is slightly bended from thrusting (seen from top). Now the blade rests forever in a carefully made scabbard, which is even in excellent condition. Together with a real worn mandau (with a hamon like on katana) this is the absolute highlight of my collection. Thanks for reading and I hope i can read some comments to this blade. p.s. I'm not sure about the right category, I think the main work of the blade is non european. Best wishes Roland M. Attached Images

18th August 2014, 12:55 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	This is not an Ottoman blade. Looks very European to me. Teodor

18th August 2014, 01:13 AM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Yes, a lovely European blade that was meant to have a good polish :-) One of my Qatari friends uses a clauberg for Ardha, he was once cleaning it while etching a wootz blade. Some of the etchant dropped on the clauberg and a pattern like this one appeared. He polished it again, as I dont think those were meant to have such patterns exposed.

18th August 2014, 01:20 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Could the blade originally be Russian in origin? They did do laminated steel. I am having difficulty seeing if the inscription remnants are Cyrillic or Arabic. If Arabic, then this could indeed be an old Ottoman shamshir blade reshaped for French(?) use.

18th August 2014, 01:49 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Solingen did damaskus.

18th August 2014, 02:48 AM	#6
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	I have never sen an Ottoman kilij that looked anything like this blade, either in the shape or the metal type.

18th August 2014, 04:14 AM	#7
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	That looks like the Peter Munich "moon". That would put it late 17, early 1800s. Very nice piece.

18th August 2014, 05:10 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	If this is a special damascus German steel blade, what throws me is the remnant inscription on the top left of the close ups.

18th August 2014, 06:49 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	This extremely attractive sabre is truly an anomaly, mostly due to this blade which appears of laminated or Damascus steel, for me in my limited understanding of metallurgy, a most perplexing subject. The hilt and scabbard do correspond to the Napoleonic sabre form identified, which is indeed French. The piped back blade, with a stepped back of 'yelman' form (a feature which in degree recalls Turkish blade styles) seems to have been present somewhat during these times. These are invariably European, and seen on British and German blades, and this pipeback, raised tip form seems to have prevailed through the 19th century contemporary with other blade styles. I agree that as far as I have known, the pipeback feature has never been used on Eastern blade forms, though the Central Asian 'T' section has similarity. What I think is interesting is that after the Napoleonic campaigns a good number of French weapons were captured by the Russians. Many of these, including these type sabres, were copied and produced at the Zlatoust arms factory. A ceremonial sabre from Zlatoust is seen with blade having remarkably similar profile with the pipeback and stepped tip (Wagner, 1967, p.455, #155) however this sword's blade is etched with military motif etc. and dates 1821. It is interesting that the Russian's had for some time had the patterned steel known as bulat. In the early 1800s in France Jean Robert Breant had begun experiments with Damascus steel based much on English work by Faraday. The Russian work with Damascus was with Petrel Petrovich Anosov but not until mid 19th century. So the question would be, is this a French sabre as properly identified with a blade experimentally produced through Breant? though I believe most of his work was post Napoleonic 1820s Or, could this have been a post Napoleonic production from Zlatoust, using perhaps bulat, or similar process? Then there is the question of the curious five crescent faced moons. While Peter Munsten indeed was one German smith whose blades often had these moons on them, these were primarily 'talismanic ' motif which were used in variation by various smiths and the engravers they used. While the French, as the Germans, used these kinds of motif (not as familiar with Russians but they likely did as well) it seems odd on this type of blade with patterned steel. I am uncertain on the other marking. These moons and other cosmological and symbolic motif were used through the 18th century, but their use seems to have ceased by early 1800s. So there remain many questions on this sword, but these details I hope might lead to some productive research and ideas.

18th August 2014, 07:49 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Because of the interesting questions this sword has raised I have sent a copy of this thread to the European Armoury as well. Best, Robert

18th August 2014, 06:33 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Excellent to move this to European as there the readers familiar with French and Russian as well as Napoleonic swords will have exposure to this intriguing example. While the idea of this being possibly Ottoman is interesting, as far as I have known no 'pipeback' form exists on their blades, and this was an entirely European innovation. As I noted earlier the only instance of similar feature was the 'T' back in mostly Central Asian forms. As for the stepped back tip, usually a false edge, this reference to the Ottoman yelman actually does not directly apply, though again a 'similarity'. I think the primary attraction to this having Eastern potential is of course the type of steel which clearly appears laminated. In that respect the presence of this example here is good as those well versed in metallurgy can respond to that aspect.

18th August 2014, 07:54 PM	#13
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Ariel made an important point above, they certainly did make these blades in Solingen. I've done my best to tease out whatever that marking is on the blade, couldn't pull anything legible.

19th August 2014, 02:20 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	My comment pointing out a sabre from Zlatoust having a similar tipped and profiled blade which was ceremonial c.1821 was meant to note the presence of that feature there and at this time. I did not mean to imply this example was 'ceremonial', but to offer a comparison in the style. If I recall correctly this clipped tip style was indeed quite well known in Solingen in the 18th century, and Seifert ("Schwert Degen Sabel",1962) captioned this in a panel of varying sword tip forms as a 'pandour point'. As has been suggested, the makers in Solingen had known processes such as pattern welding for centuries, but did not largely produce this type of laminated blade typically, as far as I know. I think what is perplexing is the differences between pattern welding, various types of Damascus and wootz, the latter being the focus of many metallurgical experiments in this period (late 18th into 19th). As barely a lay metallurgist I would beg the indulgence of those better versed in this, and appreciate better explanations. Those crescent moons certainly would offer compelling suggestion of Solingen, and recalling old traditions of multiple use of 'quality' imbuements of early tradition there. Earlier blades often had such marks or makers marks in multiples of three or up to five, presumably increasing the potential imbuement. I had a deeply curved sabre of about this period c.1800, with distinctly pointed tip, but a profound pipeback, and which I believe was possibly laminated (it was darkly patinated) . This I believed to be British but a German blade. In the period of 'innovation' when makers were striving for the most effective sword blades, many styles were considered from various cultural considerations, including the kilij, talwar and others. Many early British sabres have a pronounced yelman, and I believe the commanding officer of the 10th Hussars at Waterloo carried a pipeback, yelmaned sabre.

20th August 2014, 07:47 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	I just posted new information on this thread on the European forum.. please cross reference. The information I added I believe adds compelling evidence this may indeed be a Solingen blade and supports the suggestions by Oliver and Ariel. Thank you Roland for adding the additional detail on Zlatoust, indeed a fascinating possibility which may still be connected. It seems there were a number of makers working with watered steel blades at the time.