Degradation of important keris over time

[jagabuwana]

In Keris cultures, my understanding is that important keris are ritually cleaned periodically by their caretakers.

Over time this leads to degradation of the keris itself.

The keris is a physical object with metaphysical content and meaning - both of which make up its importance.

So when its physical aspect is degraded over time, at what point is it deemed "too" degraded?

Assuming that it is very inappropriate to simply discard it, what is done with the material that is left?

Finally, what is understood to be happening at the metaphysical level when the keris, the shrine, is degraded over time like this? e.g. does it reduce its potency as a shrine or conduit to ancestors and previous custodians?

[milandro]

I am not sure of the veridicality of many supposed finds of krises in rivers (I have seen several videos showing krises very very corroded rescued from the bottom of bodies of water) or in the forest but apparently “ burying “ a kris in water or earth is a way to deal with a kris that is no longer performing his function.


Anyway, most of these videos are in Indonesian ( and difficult to find back, to me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiWh4Y_AHq4

Bear in mind that the kris has become an industry in Indonesia and that “ old” or supposed to be old, pieces are sold at a premium there ...so there may be the temptation to make “ antiques “ and find them...


check this video search on Youtube for " Keris Metal detector “....lots and lots...


https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...metal+detector

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

In Keris cultures, my understanding is that important keris are ritually cleaned periodically by their caretakers.

Over time this leads to degradation of the keris itself.

The keris is a physical object with metaphysical content and meaning - both of which make up its importance.

So when its physical aspect is degraded over time, at what point is it deemed "too" degraded?

Assuming that it is very inappropriate to simply discard it, what is done with the material that is left?

Finally, what is understood to be happening at the metaphysical level when the keris, the shrine, is degraded over time like this? e.g. does it reduce its potency as a shrine or conduit to ancestors and previous custodians?

From my own limited experience and discussions with other local native senior collectors in the past,

actually depends on the area where the keris are from; the Bugis and Balinese keris despite being old, are still in healthy condition and I suppose it is due to the less aggressive yearly 'washing' of the bilah compare to mainland Java. Unwanted, damaged or bad keris are thrown into the river or buried. I suppose attached sample of photo is consider 'washed out'.

To the local natives, keris hold a significant spiritual values other than just a weapon.

I was also told that in ancient time, Buddhists do not destroy Buddha statues and if needed so, the statue are buried in the sand instead, out of respect.

In modern day, I came to know there are locals who took from the graves etc for old keris metal and recycle it to use to forge new keris. Not sure why. One of my Java keris is forged from old keris steel.

[milandro]

I have seen also many videos on youtube of supposedly “ rescued” krises (with metal showing a lot of corrosion) being offerend on Pasars by Kris dealers.

I have my serious doubts that there are so many krises which are found in the ground or waters. This is obviously an industry for many people .

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by milandro

I have seen also many videos on youtube of supposedly “ rescued” krises (with metal showing a lot of corrosion) being offerend on Pasars by Kris dealers.

I have my serious doubts that there are so many krises which are found in the ground or waters. This is obviously an industry for many people .

Once I came across a photo which i was asked not to show it to anyone. It was show to me by a trusted friend. In the photo, inside this small hut where there are at least hundreds of rusty old keris bilah without dress waiting to be 'recycle'. I have no idea where they get it thou.

[milandro]

if you care to follow the second link to the videos I gave above , you’ll se (predominately Malaysian videos) showing people digging a lot of stuff from the ground.

Also I see videos , especially from this channel called Ethnic Indonesia , where the owner of this shop (I suppose) goes to many markets and examines artifacts some of which are obviously very corroded.

This is one of the countless videos he has on line

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCEvNfBXNSM

Unfortunately I don ’t understand anything

[A. G. Maisey]

Jaga asked a couple of questions that in the asking might seem to be reasonably straight forward, but in the answering become impossible.

Not all keris are equal.

The belief systems, in which the keris exists as a general idea, vary.

The cultures & societies in which the keris as a physical object can be found do not have a consistency that will permit one all inclusive understanding.

This is one of the reasons why I have very little interest in keris belief systems that have arisen in places other than Jawa & Bali.

Even when our consideration is narrowed to just these two places we find that the general beliefs attached to the keris in these two places vary considerably. In one place, Jawa, we need to consider at least two very broad sets of parameters, one that is applicable to Jawa prior to the incursion of Islam, & in particular the influence of Sufic ideas, and a different set of parameters that has developed under Islam.

If we then consider Bali we find that there is the division of the pre-Puputan paradigm and the post-Puputan paradigm.

We find varying understandings in both Bali & Jawa according to both time and precise geographic location.

I would liken this situation as being on the outside of a house with many rooms, we can wander around the house and look in through the windows, and at any one time, in any one room, we can see people doing things and hear them discussing things, but what we see and hear lacks an overall consistency, depending upon what time of day it might be and what window we are looking through.

Now, if we are fortunate enough to find an open door that permits us to enter one of these rooms, we might be able to engage with some of the people in the room, and when we do, we might find that what we thought we understood when we were standing outside looking in through the window, was not at all relevant to the ideas of the inhabitants of that room.

I am inclined to totally disregard the jiggery-pokery associated with markets, commercialism and spurious claims. All this sort of thing has precious little to do with the socio-cultural paradigm in which the keris exists for those who are educated in the belief systems which support the keris.

Accordingly, for me, there is no one way of defining the understandings of culturally aware people when those people consider the being of any one specific keris in any part of time/space.

The only rational answer is that everything will always vary.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I would liken this situation as being on the outside of a house with many rooms, we can wander around the house and look in through the windows, and at any one time, in any one room, we can see people doing things and hear them discussing things, but what we see and hear lacks an overall consistency, depending upon what time of day it might be and what window we are looking through.

Now, if we are fortunate enough to find an open door that permits us to enter one of these rooms, we might be able to engage with some of the people in the room, and when we do, we might find that what we thought we understood when we were standing outside looking in through the window, was not at all relevant to the ideas of the inhabitants of that room.

This seems like a very good analogy Alan.
Milandro, while i see why Jag's questions brought up the concept of river finds and digging up keris with metal detectors, i believe this is a bit of a tangent from Jag's original questions. But like you i also am very skeptical of what seems like an awful lot of river finds of keris and can see why you suspect this is a bit of a cottage industry for some in Indonesia. There seems to be a entire collecting community within the larger keris spectrum that is very focussed on specifically collecting supposedly ancient and degraded keris pulled up from river bottoms. I tend to look at the whole thing with a rather large grain of salt, as they say. Some may be valid finds. Others maybe not. Personally though i prefer a keris that is not is relic condition regardless of the possibility of ancient origin.

[A. G. Maisey]

There definitely are valid finds of all sorts of things in Jawa, and to a lesser degree in Bali.

In Central Jawa finds have been frequent and ongoing for at least the last 50 years, that is from personal experience, and I'm certain that there were many finds before I ever went anywhere near Jawa.

Here is one of the best known finds of the recent past:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonoboyo_hoard

I have seen people bringing found items to dealers in Solo & in Jogja, very often grave goods, sometimes a hoard of valuable items, things like bronze bells or weapons. I have seen found objects brought in for sale that are covered in volcanic deposits.

In the markets of Central Jawa we can find a lot of genuine found objects. I have a couple of cabinets full of these things.

Regrettably the iron weapons are often too far gone to even attempt any sort of rescue, but where very old keris are concerned people will always try to rescue whatever they can, simply because very old keris are always in demand by Javanese collectors, who believe that old keris, no matter what condition they might be in, exercise a calming influence on younger keris.

Just outside of Solo there are the Ngandong fossil beds, this place has massive deposits of fossils relating to early man, fossils fall out of the banks of the Solo river after floods, and are exposed during the dry season. Local people collect these finds and sell them to dealers in Solo & Jogja. Foreign buyers then buy by the truck load and attempt to get the stuff out of the country, these Europeans & Americans are usually caught and get a nice long holiday in one of Indonesia's delightful, government owned holiday resorts --- these places are a bit like the Hotel California of Eagles fame:-

"Relax, " said the night man
"We are programmed to receive"
"You can check-out any time you like"
"But you can never leave!"

Places like the well known Kerobokan Resort in Bali.

Well, just as there are these massive pre-historic deposits, there are also many deposits from later periods. Roaming bands of bandits have always been a problem in the Javanese countryside, in times past if there were bandits in the area people would bury items of value, these people were sometimes killed by the bandits, sometimes they simply could not remember where they had buried things, a few hundred years later a farmer getting a field ready for planting finds the buried goods and sells them.

Then there were the volcanic eruptions, these buried a lot of things, including very large buildings. Jawa is perhaps the most volcanically active area on earth.

We must not forget the grave yards. It is widely known that smiths in the smithing settlements between Solo and Ngayogyakarta excavated weapons deposited as grave goods and used the material to produce new products.

However, all the recent underwater finds are a pretty new phenomenon. I do know one gentleman engaged in this business of finding things on the floor of Bengawan Solo, I know him quite well in fact. I would prefer not to comment.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, all the recent underwater finds are a pretty new phenomenon. I do know one gentleman engaged in this business of finding things on the floor of Bengawan Solo, I know him quite well in fact. I would prefer not to comment.

Yes, no doubt there are valid finds all over the area all the time. But as you not, these river find seem fairly recent. But they have clearly found their market with them. I see much excitement about such finds all the time on various Facebook keris pages. The lure of the ancient and mysterious i suppose. While i find it mildly interesting it also seems far too difficult to tell real finds from fakes. But certainly they have created a large audience of collectors who want to believe.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, no doubt there are valid finds all over the area all the time. But as you not, these river find seem fairly recent. But they have clearly found their market with them. I see much excitement about such finds all the time on various Facebook keris pages. The lure of the ancient and mysterious i suppose. While i find it mildly interesting it also seems far too difficult to tell real finds from fakes. But certainly they have created a large audience of collectors who want to believe.

Privately I have seen quite a good no. of very ancient finds. The buyers need to have good and trusted contacts/sources in order to even see the artefacts. The price naturally is different with foreigners paying more pricy for the items unlike locals.

But not easy to find and is very rare even locally. Most of the time, it is snap up once the local community knows about it. Foreigners hardly have chance to get it. Having said so, getting a genuine artefacts are also a great challenge.