molar mammoth

[danamd]

Hello there,

Is possible that this warangka (sheath) is made of mammoth molar fossil? What do you think about it? I am not a specialist

Best regards,

Dan

[Sajen]

Hello,

first welcome to the forum. Your Yogya scabbard and hilt are indeed form mammoth molar. Complete keris is very recent (kamardikan), maybe Madura work.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Welcome Dan. As Detlef has confirmed, yes this is mammoth molar. Mostly this is found in rather contemporary efforts, though there are a few old exempts about. Your entire ensemble appears to be fairly recent.
These threads might tell you more about this material.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=mammoth+molar
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=mammoth+molar

[A. G. Maisey]

Solo pendok.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Solo pendok.

Yup, Solo pendok for a Yogya wrongko!

[danamd]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yup, Solo pendok for a Yogya wrongko!

Thank you all for the replies!
Can you please be more specific, what is "Solo pendok"?
So it's a rare item if it's made with mamooth molar? Can anyone estimate it?

[Rick]

If by 'estimate' you mean appraise; we do not do that here .

[danamd]

Originally Posted by Rick

If by 'estimate' you mean appraise; we do not do that here .

Right, thank you anyway!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by danamd

Thank you all for the replies!
Can you please be more specific, what is "Solo pendok"?
So it's a rare item if it's made with mamooth molar? Can anyone estimate it?

Hello, like Rick write, we don't discuss prices here at the forum. I have seen some keris in the last years with molar wrongkos, all very recent, so they are not very rare and special for Java keris not a common material in old times, frankly said I don't know one old/antique Java keris with a wrongko made from this material.
A pendok is the metal oversheath, the wrongko (sheath) of your keris is from Yogya (Yogyakarta) while the pendok is a classic Solo (Surakarta) one, so not fitting proper. I would not be very surprised when your keris was made on Madura not long ago. Have a look at ebay with search word "keris" and you will find now or later a similar keris to yours which can give you also and estimated value of your keris. When you want to go deeper in keris collection look for a proper pendok, otherwise keep it like this. The real value of a keris is the blade!

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Mostly I agree with what you have said, Detlef, however, I would modify the statement that "the real value of a keris is in the blade".

The real cultural and historic value of a keris is certainly to be found in the blade, but the value of items of dress can very often outweigh the value of a blade.

Take this keris that danamd has posted a pic of. If That wrongko is well carved and well finished and of quality material, the wrongko alone would be worth far more than the blade.

Take a hypothetical:- 22K gold mendak set with diamonds & rubies on a very ordinary Pajajaran blade. The blade may be a family pusaka and has a very high cultural value, especially to the family concerned, but in terms of money, the mendak outweighs everything else.

People often tend to forget that good quality keris dress is very expensive, and its value can often be greater than the value of the blade it is on.

We do not appraise here, nor do we give valuations, however, it is useful to understand how the value of a keris is arrived at.

In the keris trade everybody knows the value of the individual components of a keris. The value of a complete keris is the combined value of the individual components. However, this combined value will usually be adjusted either up or down to accommodate the overall impression of the complete keris. In other words, if it looks really great, price moves up a little, if it looks pretty crappy price moves down.

Many years ago--- about 1980--- there was a gentleman in Solo who sold Javanese traditional dress and keris, and keris components. He probably gave me one of the best pieces of advice on keris valuation that I have ever had:-

"Everybody knows the value of the parts of a keris. We all know how much a pendok of a particular type is worth, and all the other parts. Gold and diamonds we can take down to Coyudan and get valued. But the value of a complete keris is what the seller will accept and the buyer will pay"
(Jln. Coyudan is the goldsmiths street in Solo)

[danamd]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Mostly I agree with what you have said, Detlef, however, I would modify the statement that "the real value of a keris is in the blade".

The real cultural and historic value of a keris is certainly to be found in the blade, but the value of items of dress can very often outweigh the value of a blade.

Take this keris that danamd has posted a pic of. If That wrongko is well carved and well finished and of quality material, the wrongko alone would be worth far more than the blade.

Take a hypothetical:- 22K gold mendak set with diamonds & rubies on a very ordinary Pajajaran blade. The blade may be a family pusaka and has a very high cultural value, especially to the family concerned, but in terms of money, the mendak outweighs everything else.

People often tend to forget that good quality keris dress is very expensive, and its value can often be greater than the value of the blade it is on.

We do not appraise here, nor do we give valuations, however, it is useful to understand how the value of a keris is arrived at.

In the keris trade everybody knows the value of the individual components of a keris. The value of a complete keris is the combined value of the individual components. However, this combined value will usually be adjusted either up or down to accommodate the overall impression of the complete keris. In other words, if it looks really great, price moves up a little, if it looks pretty crappy price moves down.

Many years ago--- about 1980--- there was a gentleman in Solo who sold Javanese traditional dress and keris, and keris components. He probably gave me one of the best pieces of advice on keris valuation that I have ever had:-

"Everybody knows the value of the parts of a keris. We all know how much a pendok of a particular type is worth, and all the other parts. Gold and diamonds we can take down to Coyudan and get valued. But the value of a complete keris is what the seller will accept and the buyer will pay"
(Jln. Coyudan is the goldsmiths street in Solo)

Very ineteresting! Thank you!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The real cultural and historic value of a keris is certainly to be found in the blade, but the value of items of dress can very often outweigh the value of a blade.

Take this keris that danamd has posted a pic of. If That wrongko is well carved and well finished and of quality material, the wrongko alone would be worth far more than the blade.


"Everybody knows the value of the parts of a keris. We all know how much a pendok of a particular type is worth, and all the other parts. Gold and diamonds we can take down to Coyudan and get valued. But the value of a complete keris is what the seller will accept and the buyer will pay"
(Jln. Coyudan is the goldsmiths street in Solo)

Hello Alan,

full agreement!

That's the reason why I buy sometimes keris only for one good part of it when the price is correct for me. A keris with a rotted blade and demaged wrongko can be worth the paid price when the pendok is from silver and good worked.

Regards,
Detlef

[danamd]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Alan,

full agreement!

That's the reason why I buy sometimes keris only for one good part of it when the price is correct for me. A keris with a rotted blade and demaged wrongko can be worth the paid price when the pendok is from silver and good worked.

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Sajen,

In conclusion, this keris is worthing to spend money on it?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by danamd

Hello Sajen,

In conclusion, this keris is worthing to spend money on it?

I personally wouldn't have bought it and I would let it in this state when I am you!

Regards,
Detlef

[danamd]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I personally wouldn't have bought it and I would let it in this state when I am you!

Regards,
Detlef

It was a chance for me to buy this nice keris.

Regards,

Dan

[David]

Originally Posted by danamd

It was a chance for me to buy this nice keris.

Have you been collecting keris for long Dan?

[danamd]

Originally Posted by David

Have you been collecting keris for long Dan?

not really, it's a new passion for me. Actually I bought this one accidentally, but now it represents an interesting subject.

[David]

Dan, please check your private messages on the site. I have sent you a PM.

[danamd]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The real value of a keris is the blade!

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Sajen,

Regarding the blade, how old do you think it is? In one point of the blade, it can be felt when touching the different layers. I have attached 2 new pictures.

Regards,

Dan

[David]

Originally Posted by danamd

Regarding the blade, how old do you think it is?

I suspect not very old at all as in late 20th century at best. These naga style keris can almost be viewed as reproduction of rare much earlier dhapurs. The "kinatah" (gold) is more a painted on gold leaf (when it isn't brass) and the blades have often been artificially aged for a topographical effect. We don't talk value per se on this forum, but i would image that in this case there is more material value in the dress than the blade itself.

[danamd]

Originally Posted by David

I suspect not very old at all as in late 20th century at best. These naga style keris can almost be viewed as reproduction of rare much earlier dhapurs. The "kinatah" (gold) is more a painted on gold leaf (when it isn't brass) and the blades have often been artificially aged for a topographical effect. We don't talk value per se on this forum, but i would image that in this case there is more material value in the dress than the blade itself.

Thank you David, now everything seems to be clear!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

I suspect not very old at all as in late 20th century at best. These naga style keris can almost be viewed as reproduction of rare much earlier dhapurs. The "kinatah" (gold) is more a painted on gold leaf (when it isn't brass) and the blades have often been artificially aged for a topographical effect. We don't talk value per se on this forum, but i would image that in this case there is more material value in the dress than the blade itself.

Agree with David,

the blade is very recent. The value by your keris is the dress. Read also what Alan G. Maisey has written in post #10.

Regards,
Detlef