Strange club? solomon? samoa? amazon?

fireiceviper · 21st July 2015, 11:51 PM

Purchased a strange looking club from ebay today (sold as Pacific Northwest 16.75 inch/42.5 cm), it hasn't arrived yet but when it does i can post more information.

When i first saw it, it felt Solomon island'ish mostly because of the shape and wood type(palm). then it started to have a hint of amazon war club with the drawings on there. (although they use a different type of wood mostly).

Now I'm starting to think the shape is more Samoan, because of the square shape...

The club does not look very old to me, but not like the souvenirs of recent times..perhaps around ww2... maybe a retro souvenir?

I'm just not finding anything similar with the painted shapes and overal shape of the item?

Anyone seen anything similar?

VANDOO · 22nd July 2015, 03:32 PM

THESE SMALL CLUBS ARE DIFFICULT TO PIN DOWN AS TO LOCATION. WE GENERALLY TEND TO SAY SOLOMON ISLANDS FOR THESE BUT I SUSPECT THEY ARE WIDE SPREAD THRU-OUT THE SOUTH PACIFIC. THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR FIGHTING IN CLOSE AND FOR THRUSTING AS WELL AS STRIKING BLOWS. THE DESIGNS ARE UNUSUAL ON THIS EXAMPLE AND I THINK DO PLACE IT AROUND WW2 ERA WITH NON- TRIBAL, NON-TRADITIONAL DESIGNS. THESE DESIGNS MAY HAVE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES ESPECIALLY THE DESIGN SIMILAR TO THE GERMAN SYMBOL. A NICE AND UNUSUAL EXAMPLE OF THE FORM.

fireiceviper · 22nd July 2015, 09:21 PM

The Pommel and palm wood was what first made me think of the Solomon islands but the shape is so very different from the normal ones...even way after ww2... this is more cube shaped instead of flat/leaf/diamond/ shaped...

The black paint is still a mystery to me... i kind-of see the resemblance to the Nazi logo, but its not quite there... i mean a swastika is really easy to draw... almost impossible to not get right... so it really could mean something else..

Do you have a link to anything similar?

David · 22nd July 2015, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireiceviper

The black paint is still a mystery to me... i kind-of see the resemblance to the Nazi logo, but its not quite there... i mean a swastika is really easy to draw... almost impossible to not get right... so it really could mean something else..

The swastika is a very ancient symbol with a long history of positive application throughout the world, from India to the Americas. It is generally a symbol of solar power, whirling energies, the four directions, etc. and is a sign of good luck in many cultures. What is carved on this club is most definitely a swastika, though it is also NOT a Nazi swastika.

Tim Simmons · 22nd July 2015, 10:14 PM

This club looks a lot better than the many ww2 souvenir short supi Solomon Island club. Although not old looking it does seem to have a patina from frequent handling. Like you My first thoughts were the Solomons. However there is something Amazon about it too. I am finding the Amazon a great source for clubs and an area where forms are yet to be fully appreciated and catalogued. One of the main appeal for the right type of Amazon club is that they do not have to be old to be the " real thing " in a way that we as collectors understand. For the time being I still favour the Solomons. Perhaps daylight pictures might help? The pommel does not suggest Amazon to me.

Tim Simmons · 22nd July 2015, 10:21 PM

The more I look at it I am starting to see more Amazon than Solomons. I think a pictorial case could be made with comparable examples. I can post a few perhaps tomorrow.

fireiceviper · 23rd July 2015, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The more I look at it I am starting to see more Amazon than Solomons. I think a pictorial case could be made with comparable examples. I can post a few perhaps tomorrow.

I know! its driving me crazy! unfortunately i don't have the item here so i can't take better pictures.

Also ignore all my comments about palm-wood...off-course they use it in the amazon ( i have some examples on my wall).. i was just being blind...

Gavin Nugent · 23rd July 2015, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This club looks a lot better than the many ww2 souvenir short supi Solomon Island club. Although not old looking it does seem to have a patina from frequent handling. Like you My first thoughts were the Solomons. However there is something Amazon about it too. I am finding the Amazon a great source for clubs and an area where forms are yet to be fully appreciated and catalogued. One of the main appeal for the right type of Amazon club is that they do not have to be old to be the " real thing " in a way that we as collectors understand. For the time being I still favour the Solomons. Perhaps daylight pictures might help? The pommel does not suggest Amazon to me.

Tim & Barry

You guys have a very good handle on these types of weapons and very good reference points in literature and imagery...perhaps, and just a long shot, but is it worth comparing the weaving like motifs on the club in question to Solomon Island and South American examples which retain their original woven fibres? And perhaps the engraved tattoo deigns native to each and other regions too?

Just a thought?

Gavin

Tim Simmons · 23rd July 2015, 05:54 PM

Looking again, and realising that it is only 16 inches long. It seems to be more of a dagger. When it you think of a dagger you tend to think of a metal knife to cut and penetrate flesh and muscle but I think a wood dagger is more about blunt force trauma to the face, head and upper torso. I can see similar decorations on Solomon and Amazon weapons but I just have a feeling that this is Amazon. Reference is make to daggers here---

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/vi...t=anthrotheses

Perhaps it is Guyanese?

fearn · 24th July 2015, 05:28 AM

I thought Amazon when I first saw it.

Then I misinterpreted it as a baby paddle club, which is quite common in the South Pacific, as Vandoo noted. They seem to be the equivalent of a short sword, if the paddle's a great sword.

Then I looked at it again, and realized it has more of a square cross section rather than a rhomoid (paddle). That swung me back to Amazonian again.

I guess that means I think Tim's right.

F

fireiceviper · 28th July 2015, 10:08 PM

Update:

Received the paddle today, the color in real life is much more a yellow orange red then a red wood which is how it appears in the pictures i bought it from (post1)

Its also a lot smaller, see included picture in my normal sized hands (for lack of a better word)

The wood still looks like palm but a much finer type then i have here, could also be another type.. (any help would be welcome on the wood type)

The shape is much more like a paddle then seen in the first pictures.

The main difference with the Solomon type is the butt end and the missing of the typical cross form,

So still one big mystery...

Gavin Nugent · 29th July 2015, 09:47 AM

The more I have looked in books and online and compared to the Amazon clubs in my collections and abroad, I do see this as Santa Cruz islands, IE; Solomon Islands.

Gavin

colin henshaw · 29th July 2015, 03:46 PM

With the angular form and decorations, it has much more of a South American "look" to me. There was a short pointed club used as a stabbing weapon in Guyana/Guiana, but I don't think it had a raised circular bit to the end like that ?

fireiceviper · 29th July 2015, 08:27 PM

I'm leaning towards Solomon too right now (although there is nothing similar in the dutch museum databases). Perhaps a kid club?

I have found some of the Guyana area small wood dagger type clubs, none are made of this wood and are much less angular, could be that they just don't have this type (those are all made of hardwood, this still appears to me as a relatively soft palm wood).

But south/central America is a huge place so there could be another region where they use these clubs all the time ( the dutch museums mostly focus on guyana/surinam because it was an ex colony)

As for function:
I have no doubt you could stab someone with it, or club him. but to me in hand it feels like its made for throwing (or for tourists

)

The carving with the black inlay is still the odd thing on this club, normal inlay is white (lime) (the exception to this is Solomon tourist clubs and amazonian clubs)

I've included some pictures of tourist Solomon war clubs and amazonian clubs.

Tim Simmons · 29th July 2015, 09:56 PM

I am going for South America. I can only see a dagger of Amerindian form. It just does not look like a miniature supi club.

fireiceviper · 31st July 2015, 01:28 PM

Update:

A couple of people in the Facebook group about tribal weapons noticed that the paterns on the club are similar too the ones used on Santa Cruz island (solomon group).

And i agree! As for a function still no clue, too small for a normal dance paddle from that region ... could be one for children

i've included some examples of the tapa and a pdf (sorry pdf to big i made it a link ) with some more information.

PDF

Tim Simmons · 31st July 2015, 02:41 PM

Just when I was about to change my mind and agree with you. I thought perhaps one could see design similarities with this South American {Guyana} club. The shape is kind of related just the round pommel hints at the Solomons.

VANDOO · 31st July 2015, 07:15 PM

THERE ARE SIMILAR FORMS AND DESIGNS AROUND THE WORLD IN CLUBS AND EVERYTHING ELSE. BE CAREFUL TRYING TO MAKE SOMETHING INTO WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE AND BREAK NEW GROUND AND MAKE A NEW DISCOVERY.

I THINK THIS DISCUSSION HAS MUDDIED THE WATERS AS TO WHAT WE HAVE AND WHERE ITS COME FROM. MY PERSONAL OBSERVATION IS THIS FORM OF CLUB /DAGGER IS FOUND THRU-OUT OCEANIA AND OFTEN HAS VARIOUS DESIGNS ON THE HEAD.
IN SOUTH AMERICA THE STABBING WEAPONS GENERALLY TEND TO BE MORE KNIFE LIKE OR LIKE A SHORT SPEAR AND DON'T TEND TO INCORPORATE THE FUNCTION OF A CLUB. IT COULD BE SOUTH AMERICAN BUT THE ODDS FAVOR SOUTH PACIFIC ORIGINS ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT MORE FROM THAT REGION CIRCA WW2 ON THE MARKET THAN FROM SOUTH AMERICA. BUT WHAT DO I KNOW

CARRY ON.

THE REASON I DARE TO BRING THIS UP IS THERE ARE FEW REFERENCES I AM AWARE OF ON SOUTH AMERICAN CLUBS AND WHEN SOMEONE DOES WRITE ONE WE DON'T WANT WRONG INFORMATION HERE AS IT MIGHT BE PASSED ON IN THE BOOK PERPETUATING ANY MISTAKES WE MAKE HERE. THAT IS WHY I OFTEN WARN OF CONJECTURE OR SAY "IDENTIFIED AS" IN SOME OF MY POSTS.

fireiceviper · 31st July 2015, 08:43 PM

As much as i would like this club to be from south america (that would make it more real probably), i just can't see it anymore.

Santa Cruz islands have some dance wands with similar patterns and the black inlay see http://www.faganarms.com/collections...rm-club-94-257 for instance (ignore form but look at the inlay!)

i've ordered a book about he material culture of the Santa Cruz islands (in german o joy!) that i hope will shed some light on the form.

But i'm suspecting a ww2 souvenir from that area...that would make it a tourist piece...and would make me less happy

but the truth is the truth no matter how bad you want it to be something else.

21st July 2015, 11:51 PM	#1
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	Strange club? solomon? samoa? amazon? Purchased a strange looking club from ebay today (sold as Pacific Northwest 16.75 inch/42.5 cm), it hasn't arrived yet but when it does i can post more information. When i first saw it, it felt Solomon island'ish mostly because of the shape and wood type(palm). then it started to have a hint of amazon war club with the drawings on there. (although they use a different type of wood mostly). Now I'm starting to think the shape is more Samoan, because of the square shape... The club does not look very old to me, but not like the souvenirs of recent times..perhaps around ww2... maybe a retro souvenir? I'm just not finding anything similar with the painted shapes and overal shape of the item? Anyone seen anything similar? Attached Images

28th July 2015, 10:08 PM	#11
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	Update: Received the paddle today, the color in real life is much more a yellow orange red then a red wood which is how it appears in the pictures i bought it from (post1) Its also a lot smaller, see included picture in my normal sized hands (for lack of a better word) The wood still looks like palm but a much finer type then i have here, could also be another type.. (any help would be welcome on the wood type) The shape is much more like a paddle then seen in the first pictures. The main difference with the Solomon type is the butt end and the missing of the typical cross form, So still one big mystery... Attached Images

29th July 2015, 08:27 PM	#14
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	I'm leaning towards Solomon too right now (although there is nothing similar in the dutch museum databases). Perhaps a kid club? I have found some of the Guyana area small wood dagger type clubs, none are made of this wood and are much less angular, could be that they just don't have this type (those are all made of hardwood, this still appears to me as a relatively soft palm wood). But south/central America is a huge place so there could be another region where they use these clubs all the time ( the dutch museums mostly focus on guyana/surinam because it was an ex colony) As for function: I have no doubt you could stab someone with it, or club him. but to me in hand it feels like its made for throwing (or for tourists ) The carving with the black inlay is still the odd thing on this club, normal inlay is white (lime) (the exception to this is Solomon tourist clubs and amazonian clubs) I've included some pictures of tourist Solomon war clubs and amazonian clubs. Attached Images

31st July 2015, 01:28 PM	#16
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	Update: A couple of people in the Facebook group about tribal weapons noticed that the paterns on the club are similar too the ones used on Santa Cruz island (solomon group). And i agree! As for a function still no clue, too small for a normal dance paddle from that region ... could be one for children i've included some examples of the tapa and a pdf (sorry pdf to big i made it a link ) with some more information. PDF Attached Images

31st July 2015, 02:41 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Just when I was about to change my mind and agree with you. I thought perhaps one could see design similarities with this South American {Guyana} club. The shape is kind of related just the round pommel hints at the Solomons. Attached Images

22nd July 2015, 03:32 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THESE SMALL CLUBS ARE DIFFICULT TO PIN DOWN AS TO LOCATION. WE GENERALLY TEND TO SAY SOLOMON ISLANDS FOR THESE BUT I SUSPECT THEY ARE WIDE SPREAD THRU-OUT THE SOUTH PACIFIC. THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR FIGHTING IN CLOSE AND FOR THRUSTING AS WELL AS STRIKING BLOWS. THE DESIGNS ARE UNUSUAL ON THIS EXAMPLE AND I THINK DO PLACE IT AROUND WW2 ERA WITH NON- TRIBAL, NON-TRADITIONAL DESIGNS. THESE DESIGNS MAY HAVE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES ESPECIALLY THE DESIGN SIMILAR TO THE GERMAN SYMBOL. A NICE AND UNUSUAL EXAMPLE OF THE FORM.

22nd July 2015, 09:21 PM	#3
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	The Pommel and palm wood was what first made me think of the Solomon islands but the shape is so very different from the normal ones...even way after ww2... this is more cube shaped instead of flat/leaf/diamond/ shaped... The black paint is still a mystery to me... i kind-of see the resemblance to the Nazi logo, but its not quite there... i mean a swastika is really easy to draw... almost impossible to not get right... so it really could mean something else.. Do you have a link to anything similar?

22nd July 2015, 10:14 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This club looks a lot better than the many ww2 souvenir short supi Solomon Island club. Although not old looking it does seem to have a patina from frequent handling. Like you My first thoughts were the Solomons. However there is something Amazon about it too. I am finding the Amazon a great source for clubs and an area where forms are yet to be fully appreciated and catalogued. One of the main appeal for the right type of Amazon club is that they do not have to be old to be the " real thing " in a way that we as collectors understand. For the time being I still favour the Solomons. Perhaps daylight pictures might help? The pommel does not suggest Amazon to me.

22nd July 2015, 10:21 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The more I look at it I am starting to see more Amazon than Solomons. I think a pictorial case could be made with comparable examples. I can post a few perhaps tomorrow.

23rd July 2015, 05:54 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looking again, and realising that it is only 16 inches long. It seems to be more of a dagger. When it you think of a dagger you tend to think of a metal knife to cut and penetrate flesh and muscle but I think a wood dagger is more about blunt force trauma to the face, head and upper torso. I can see similar decorations on Solomon and Amazon weapons but I just have a feeling that this is Amazon. Reference is make to daggers here--- http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/vi...t=anthrotheses Perhaps it is Guyanese?

24th July 2015, 05:28 AM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I thought Amazon when I first saw it. Then I misinterpreted it as a baby paddle club, which is quite common in the South Pacific, as Vandoo noted. They seem to be the equivalent of a short sword, if the paddle's a great sword. Then I looked at it again, and realized it has more of a square cross section rather than a rhomoid (paddle). That swung me back to Amazonian again. I guess that means I think Tim's right. F

29th July 2015, 09:47 AM	#12
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The more I have looked in books and online and compared to the Amazon clubs in my collections and abroad, I do see this as Santa Cruz islands, IE; Solomon Islands. Gavin

29th July 2015, 03:46 PM	#13
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	With the angular form and decorations, it has much more of a South American "look" to me. There was a short pointed club used as a stabbing weapon in Guyana/Guiana, but I don't think it had a raised circular bit to the end like that ?

29th July 2015, 09:56 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I am going for South America. I can only see a dagger of Amerindian form. It just does not look like a miniature supi club.

31st July 2015, 07:15 PM	#18
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE ARE SIMILAR FORMS AND DESIGNS AROUND THE WORLD IN CLUBS AND EVERYTHING ELSE. BE CAREFUL TRYING TO MAKE SOMETHING INTO WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE AND BREAK NEW GROUND AND MAKE A NEW DISCOVERY. I THINK THIS DISCUSSION HAS MUDDIED THE WATERS AS TO WHAT WE HAVE AND WHERE ITS COME FROM. MY PERSONAL OBSERVATION IS THIS FORM OF CLUB /DAGGER IS FOUND THRU-OUT OCEANIA AND OFTEN HAS VARIOUS DESIGNS ON THE HEAD. IN SOUTH AMERICA THE STABBING WEAPONS GENERALLY TEND TO BE MORE KNIFE LIKE OR LIKE A SHORT SPEAR AND DON'T TEND TO INCORPORATE THE FUNCTION OF A CLUB. IT COULD BE SOUTH AMERICAN BUT THE ODDS FAVOR SOUTH PACIFIC ORIGINS ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT MORE FROM THAT REGION CIRCA WW2 ON THE MARKET THAN FROM SOUTH AMERICA. BUT WHAT DO I KNOW CARRY ON. THE REASON I DARE TO BRING THIS UP IS THERE ARE FEW REFERENCES I AM AWARE OF ON SOUTH AMERICAN CLUBS AND WHEN SOMEONE DOES WRITE ONE WE DON'T WANT WRONG INFORMATION HERE AS IT MIGHT BE PASSED ON IN THE BOOK PERPETUATING ANY MISTAKES WE MAKE HERE. THAT IS WHY I OFTEN WARN OF CONJECTURE OR SAY "IDENTIFIED AS" IN SOME OF MY POSTS. Last edited by VANDOO; 31st July 2015 at 08:09 PM.

31st July 2015, 08:43 PM	#19
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	As much as i would like this club to be from south america (that would make it more real probably), i just can't see it anymore. Santa Cruz islands have some dance wands with similar patterns and the black inlay see http://www.faganarms.com/collections...rm-club-94-257 for instance (ignore form but look at the inlay!) i've ordered a book about he material culture of the Santa Cruz islands (in german o joy!) that i hope will shed some light on the form. But i'm suspecting a ww2 souvenir from that area...that would make it a tourist piece...and would make me less happy but the truth is the truth no matter how bad you want it to be something else.