Help needed with burgonet

Ron Anderson · 3rd November 2010, 06:15 AM

Hi

This is an item I bought on eBay. Bidding on it was certainly intense and in the end I think I won it with my last dollar. It's just arrived in the post. And it looks very good to me.

But I don't know what it is. The etching on it is magnificent. My view is it is French and one of the many portraits looks to me to be Henry IV, the first of the Bourbons.

But I could be wrong, of course.

This should be an easy ID if you have the right references - there are portrait engravings for a start.

I'd appreciate any help I can get on this.

Ron Anderson · 3rd November 2010, 07:09 AM

More photos

Ron Anderson · 3rd November 2010, 07:11 AM

And even more photos

Matchlock · 4th November 2010, 12:10 AM

Hi Ron,

I assume assigning this morion to France is probably correct; the other likely choice would of course be Italy as the style of the etching is clearly based on Italian Renaissance patterns.

The bearded male portrait medallion in the second to last image obviously goes back to the later Landsknecht fashion of ca. 1540-50, as known from engravings by e.g. Jost Amman and Virgil Solis.

Best,
Michael

Ron Anderson · 4th November 2010, 01:30 AM

Hi Michael

Thanks for that. I agree with your assessment of the style. The portraits do have that look.

Italian is an option. Having said that, it does not to me look like what is generally described as the pisan style. And I have seen French helmets that appear to closer to this form.

But I could be wrong. I haven't looked at enough of this sort of engraving to have a reliable opinion.

I took a good look at the helmet and it has genuine age. There are remnants of leather at the base of the skull. These are so old they have virtually turned to charcoal. There is pitting on the inside, which may or made be concealing an armourer's mark, which I haven't yet found.

Not a Victorian copy, of that I'm sure. But I'm not if this 17th century or earlier.

Ron Anderson · 4th November 2010, 03:14 AM

Hi Michael

It is interesting you call it a morion. It is more burgonet, I think, in form. However, perhaps it could accurately be called a morion-burgonet. This is a phrase that is used to describe similar sorts of helmets - parade-type burgonets.

Matchlock · 4th November 2010, 06:20 PM

Hi Ron,

I called it a morion because this is the apt German word and, in the last years, also seems have been preferred by English sales houses, whereas burgonet is more confined to what we call a Sturmhaube.

Sorry, I forgot to add that it should be closely dated aroud 1580, in spite of the fact that the patterns of the etching are of course older.

Best,
Michael

Atlantia · 4th November 2010, 08:49 PM

I guess I was one of the ba-zillion people watching this on eBay.
Lovely item. I'm certainly no expert on these, so cant add much. I couldn't tell from the pics if it was period or a viccy copy.
But it's very beautiful, the quality is lovely.
You've got deep pockets bro!

And surely now a picture of you wearing it?

celtan · 5th November 2010, 12:11 AM

Beautiful. Congrats!
Looks Spanish to me.
Best.
M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I guess I was one of the ba-zillion people watching this on eBay.
Lovely item. I'm certainly no expert on these, so cant add much. I couldn't tell from the pics if it was period or a viccy copy.
But it's very beautiful, the quality is lovely.
You've got deep pockets bro!

And surely now a picture of you wearing it?

Ron Anderson · 5th November 2010, 12:20 AM

Hi Michael

Thanks for your insights on this. That's a big help.

Hi Atlantia

Yes, it's hard discerning what's a copy and what isn't. I concluded the quality was too fine to be a copy. But of course you get some very fine copies. However, in the hand it is very clear it's not 19th century. It is a good deal older than that. It even smells 16th century.

About those deep pockets. Truth is, I put a high bid in not expecting anybody to go anywhere near that price and, unfortunately, someone was prepared to pay about 1 dollar less than me!

But I'm glad I paid it. I think it's worth the sum, easily. It is without question the best item in my collection.

Atlantia · 5th November 2010, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Hi Michael

Thanks for your insights on this. That's a big help.

Hi Atlantia

Yes, it's hard discerning what's a copy and what isn't. I concluded the quality was too fine to be a copy. But of course you get some very fine copies. However, in the hand it is very clear it's not 19th century. It is a good deal older than that. It even smells 16th century.

About those deep pockets. Truth is, I put a high bid in not expecting anybody to go anywhere near that price and, unfortunately, someone was prepared to pay about 1 dollar less than me!

But I'm glad I paid it. I think it's worth the sum, easily. It is without question the best item in my collection.

Well mate, I think it looks fabulous!
Some pics of it one display in your collection perhaps?
If you arent going to model it for us?

As for the bidding, well its heartbreaking to think you lost it by a dollar but would have gone a little higher, so well done for getting the bid right

Ron Anderson · 5th November 2010, 07:47 AM

Hi Atlantia

No problem. May take a while though. My collection is in storage.

3rd November 2010, 06:15 AM	#1
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Help needed with burgonet Hi This is an item I bought on eBay. Bidding on it was certainly intense and in the end I think I won it with my last dollar. It's just arrived in the post. And it looks very good to me. But I don't know what it is. The etching on it is magnificent. My view is it is French and one of the many portraits looks to me to be Henry IV, the first of the Bourbons. But I could be wrong, of course. This should be an easy ID if you have the right references - there are portrait engravings for a start. I'd appreciate any help I can get on this. Attached Images

3rd November 2010, 07:09 AM	#2
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	More photos Attached Images

3rd November 2010, 07:11 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	And even more photos Attached Images

4th November 2010, 12:10 AM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Ron, I assume assigning this morion to France is probably correct; the other likely choice would of course be Italy as the style of the etching is clearly based on Italian Renaissance patterns. The bearded male portrait medallion in the second to last image obviously goes back to the later Landsknecht fashion of ca. 1540-50, as known from engravings by e.g. Jost Amman and Virgil Solis. Best, Michael

4th November 2010, 01:30 AM	#5
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Michael Thanks for that. I agree with your assessment of the style. The portraits do have that look. Italian is an option. Having said that, it does not to me look like what is generally described as the pisan style. And I have seen French helmets that appear to closer to this form. But I could be wrong. I haven't looked at enough of this sort of engraving to have a reliable opinion. I took a good look at the helmet and it has genuine age. There are remnants of leather at the base of the skull. These are so old they have virtually turned to charcoal. There is pitting on the inside, which may or made be concealing an armourer's mark, which I haven't yet found. Not a Victorian copy, of that I'm sure. But I'm not if this 17th century or earlier.

4th November 2010, 03:14 AM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Michael It is interesting you call it a morion. It is more burgonet, I think, in form. However, perhaps it could accurately be called a morion-burgonet. This is a phrase that is used to describe similar sorts of helmets - parade-type burgonets.

4th November 2010, 06:20 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Ron, I called it a morion because this is the apt German word and, in the last years, also seems have been preferred by English sales houses, whereas burgonet is more confined to what we call a Sturmhaube. Sorry, I forgot to add that it should be closely dated aroud 1580, in spite of the fact that the patterns of the etching are of course older. Best, Michael

4th November 2010, 08:49 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I guess I was one of the ba-zillion people watching this on eBay. Lovely item. I'm certainly no expert on these, so cant add much. I couldn't tell from the pics if it was period or a viccy copy. But it's very beautiful, the quality is lovely. You've got deep pockets bro! And surely now a picture of you wearing it?

5th November 2010, 12:20 AM	#10
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Michael Thanks for your insights on this. That's a big help. Hi Atlantia Yes, it's hard discerning what's a copy and what isn't. I concluded the quality was too fine to be a copy. But of course you get some very fine copies. However, in the hand it is very clear it's not 19th century. It is a good deal older than that. It even smells 16th century. About those deep pockets. Truth is, I put a high bid in not expecting anybody to go anywhere near that price and, unfortunately, someone was prepared to pay about 1 dollar less than me! But I'm glad I paid it. I think it's worth the sum, easily. It is without question the best item in my collection.

5th November 2010, 07:47 AM	#12
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Atlantia No problem. May take a while though. My collection is in storage.