WHICH SUNDANG?

ganjawulung · 18th March 2010, 03:01 AM

Dear All,

This old blade has been in my collection for almost one year. But it is still doubtful for me to say that it is a sundang. The type of "greneng" (I don't think this is the right term for it) is suspicious... If it is a sundang, then which sundang? Moro? Malay? Fake sundang?

The sheath is suspicious too... It should not be the original one.

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 18th March 2010, 03:04 AM

And not the original sheath, I think...

PenangsangII · 18th March 2010, 03:43 AM

Pak Ganja, how long is the blade? and does the blade fit in nicely into the blade?
From my limited experience, this confusing mixture of keris or sundangs pamor, ricikan, wrangka and hilt can be attributed to Kalimantan/Borneo whereby there were a lot of cultural mixture among the locals, Jawanese, Buginese and Sumatrans....

rasdan · 18th March 2010, 05:32 AM

Pak Ganja,

I am sorry, but I think this is a new sundang. The iron looks like it had been artificially aged. I had never seen a genuinely old sundang with this kind of iron. But this is just my blind guess. I hope i am wrong..

Just to add a bit, a few years back, i was shown by a relative their familiy's pusaka sundang. Everything looks Malay, but the greneng looks more towards Moro side. I guess, Malay sundang also uses Moro greneng..

ganjawulung · 18th March 2010, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Pak Ganja, how long is the blade? and does the blade fit in nicely into the blade?
From my limited experience, this confusing mixture of keris or sundangs pamor, ricikan, wrangka and hilt can be attributed to Kalimantan/Borneo whereby there were a lot of cultural mixture among the locals, Jawanese, Buginese and Sumatrans....

It is 52 cm long (not including the square tang, or pesi), and the tang is 7 cm. I don't even bother the type of warangka and the hilt, because it could be changed at anytime. But anyway, thank you for the valuable information you gave...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Pak Ganja,
I am sorry, but I think this is a new sundang. The iron looks like it had been artificially aged. I had never seen a genuinely old sundang with this kind of iron. But this is just my blind guess. I hope i am wrong..

Just to add a bit, a few years back, i was shown by a relative their familiy's pusaka sundang. Everything looks Malay, but the greneng looks more towards Moro side. I guess, Malay sundang also uses Moro greneng..

Thank you Rasdan, for your comment. But still it is not convincing for me to regard this as newly made sundang and it was artificially aged. Because one of my 'first lesson in keris' couple years back, is "learning how to age a new keris, to look older" in order not to be cheated by my 'bakoel' (dealer) friends. Once you learn this lesson, you won't be easily cheated by nasty dealers...

From cleaning blades experience -- with coconut's husk, and then "mutih" (whiten) the blade with lime-juice and cream-soap or whatever -- you may learn too to differ which blade is newly made and which is old...

Anyway, thanks a lot for the comments...

GANJAWULUNG

rasdan · 18th March 2010, 09:10 AM

No problem Pak Ganja. It is just my guess. It is good to know that you had learnt the ageing technique. I only know salt & sulphur and natural rusting. What i know is, if the blade is made of wrought iron, the combination of the above ageing methods would be enough to make blades look old. It is just that we have to be patient with the natural rusting process. One year of sun and rain, the blade would look rather antique.

Perhaps you can enlighten us here on how artificial aging is being done?

I also attached a picture of a sundang tang that supposedly had been aged. Unfortunately i don't know the ageing technique used. This sundang is probably from Madura. The ageing pattern is very convincing.

kai · 18th March 2010, 09:48 AM

Hello Pak Ganja,

It's certainly a keris sundang - I'm not convinced that it's antique though. My first thought was that this may have come from a pande Jawa, or probably be a Madurese creation.

The blade is not Moro (laminations and scroll work are off). Any pic of the blade tip?

Quote:

From cleaning blades experience -- with coconut's husk, and then "mutih" (whiten) the blade with lime-juice and cream-soap or whatever -- you may learn too to differ which blade is newly made and which is old...

Has the blade been hardened? Could it have been forged from old steel?

AFAIK sundang blades were kept smooth (like keris Bali) in all ethnic groups with a keris sundang tradition. Possibly Rasdan was referring to the obviously Javanese surface treatment?

Quote:

I don't even bother the type of warangka and the hilt, because it could be changed at anytime.

I'm fairly sure the scabbard is a replacement done on Java/Madura. Can you narrow down it's age from craftmanship and material?

Regards,
Kai

ganjawulung · 18th March 2010, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

I only know salt & sulphur and natural rusting. What i know is, if the blade is made of wrought iron, the combination of the above ageing methods would be enough to make blades look old. It is just that we have to be patient with the natural rusting process. One year of sun and rain, the blade would look rather antique.

Perhaps you can enlighten us here on how artificial aging is being done?

I also attached a picture of a sundang tang that supposedly had been aged. Unfortunately i don't know the ageing technique used. This sundang is probably from Madura. The ageing pattern is very convincing.

The most common technique by my Maduran friends -- at least once or twice I practice just to know how -- is "kamalan" (technique of ageing new blade) with crushed red brick (for laying the keris in a certain place, like "blandongan"), wetted by not too-much watter and mixed with about a cup of crushed sulphur and three spoonful of salt... Submerge the new blade in the crushed-red-brick-sulphur-salt for (it depends the result) one night. Then clean with cream soap, and submerge in citroen liquid (I don't know the english word) to clean the blade. Then directly "mutih" (whithen) the blade... Before warangan.

But of course, not as simple as that. And not simple to explain. You must practice yourself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

It's certainly a keris sundang - I'm not convinced that it's antique though. My first thought was that this may have come from a pande Jawa, or probably be a Madurese creation.

The blade is not Moro (laminations and scroll work are off). Any pic of the blade tip?Kai

Dear Kai, later at home I will post the more close up. I am still in office...

GANJAWULUNG

rasdan · 18th March 2010, 10:38 AM

Thanks for the explanation Pak Ganja. Sounds like the procedure is pretty much the same. I think Citreon liquid is probably citric acid that comes in the form of granules that is diluted in water. I think this method would give with different effect/result with different iron. Anyhow, thanks again for your kind explanation.

A. G. Maisey · 18th March 2010, 11:15 AM

Here are a few questions.

1)--- what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade?

2)--- is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core?

3)--- what method was used to produce the greneng?

4)--- does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade?

5)--- where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used?

6)--- why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle?

The answers to these questions may assist in a determination of exactly what we are looking at here.

Pity we don't have a time machine.

ganjawulung · 19th March 2010, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'm fairly sure the scabbard is a replacement done on Java/Madura. Can you narrow down it's age from craftmanship and material?
Regards,
Kai

Me too, Kai, I'm pretty sure this scabbard is a replacement, maybe much later. The craftmanship, it is more central javanese scabbard than maduran. Not too old "timoho" (kleinhovia hospita) wood... You may see the bottom of the blade too (from the picture), that the form of "sirah cecak" (bottom face of the ganja) is not typically javanese. You may compare with any javanese "sirah cecak"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

I think this method would give with different effect/result with different iron. Anyhow, thanks again for your kind explanation.

Yes, totally agree Rasdan. You must extra carefully monitor the result of ageing, time to time, in order the blade not to be totally corroded by the "kamalan".

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here are a few questions.
1)--- what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade?
2)--- is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core?
3)--- what method was used to produce the greneng?
4)--- does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade?
5)--- where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used?
6)--- why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle?
The answers to these questions may assist in a determination of exactly what we are looking at here.
Pity we don't have a time machine.

Thanks for guiding this discussion in positive way, Alan. All I can answer is just speculation. I think this 'sundang' is mistreated in the past, maybe by the former owner or dealer. They treated the sundang as if they treated javanese blade -- they "mutih" the blade, and soaked the blade to warangan liquid, and made the blade corroded. Most sundang I've seen in Jawa was treated like this -- corroded by kamalan, before being soaked into warangan. The mistreatment also happen in almost every Sumatran keris in Jawa -- treated like javanese blades, and being soaked into warangan...

Alam Shah · 20th March 2010, 07:12 AM

Interesting discussion..

Pak Ganja, the blade looks like there's some age to it but not too old.. I like the upper half on the blade, but the base area.. are a lot off. It might be in a simpler form initially before its transformation. The 'greneng' area seems like drilled holes to me.. 10 number on the greneng area and 3 numbers on the 'kembang kacang' area to form the 'jenggot'.. the gandik area seems re-worked, (to me anyway).

Alan's questions and my answers..
1) what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade?
- no idea. Not from the Northern Malay states (Terengganu, Kelantan, Pattani), not Moro, not Sulu..

2) is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core?
-no, imho..

3) what method was used to produce the greneng?
- a power drill (?)..

4) does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade?
- not that I can see, (from the photos)..

5) where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used?
- hmmm.. not Moro, afaik.. for Malay sundangs, I've yet to see this form. Most Borneo sundangs, have broader width and it's blade texture are mostly similar to Moro's.. afaik.

6) why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle?
- good question.. fittings done in Indonesia(?).. handle mix-n-match(?)..

ganjawulung · 20th March 2010, 08:34 AM

Conclusion for the time being:
Commercially motivated sundang, forged of old steel, with ageing process... Made in Jawa? I will keep it, until I get a real sundang...

Thanks a lot to all, for the discussion and your sharing...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 20th March 2010, 11:29 AM

Pak Ganja, your conclusion may very well be correct, but lets not stop with this job of examination only half done.

Alam Shah has supplied some answers to my questions, so now I'd like to pose some more questions:-

1)--- when we see a very slim, whispy kembang kacang, what geographic locality do we usually associate that with?
when we see a very steeply angled gandik, what geographic locality do we usually associate that with?

2)--- it is impossible to tell if there is filler between the gonjo and the blade, however, there is a considerable gap between the gonjo and the blade and it is full of something; only a loupe and a needle will tell if it is filler or not.Additionally, there appears to be a gap around the pesi:- what is holding the ganja in place?

3)--- AlamShah seems to think that this could not be a Malay blade, so where else might it come from? Are we used to seeing such a gap between the tungkakan and the ganja in Moro keris?

4)--- Pak Ganja has suggested that this blade might have been made in Jawa, as a commnercial undertaking, which I assume means recently. OK--- where in Jawa? Jogja? Solo? or maybe somewhere a little further East, say the province of East Jawa?

5) --- the pamor motif is adeg siji, a single strip of pamor in the center of the blade; in keris from what geographic locality is this a reasonably common pamor?

ganjawulung · 20th March 2010, 04:22 PM

Dear Alan,
I've tried to watch this suspicious blade more carefully. And the whole impressions is that this blade doesn't seem completely new, although it is possible that the blade is forged from older metal material, and not todays material. That is why, my first impression to see this blade as old blade. The bending blade probably was quenched, from above the sor-soran until the tip of the blade -- it is the type of old technique of keris making. The Quenching technique ("disepuh"). (The upper blade become more corroded than the lower).

At a glance, the overall shape is as the shape of sundang. Type of "keris pedang", combination form of keris and pedang. The maker of the blade, was probably had intention to make sundang, either Melayu or Moro -- seen from the very "steeply angled gandhik". Of course, this is not the style of javanese keris making. Also the awkward form of "sirah cecak". More "sundang" style than javanese keris style...

But if you watch more carefully the details -- such as, the slim sekar kacang -- it remind me the style of older Maduran kerises (Sumolo?), with detail of "jenggot" above the sekar kacang...

Regarding the pamor of "adeg siji", or you probably regard as "sada sak ler", it could be more eastern Jawa, than central. The size of the blade, also more east jawa -- tends bigger than central jawa kerises. (Later I will post pictures for comparison, between older Maduran keris and this blade. Especially we may compare the forms of details in the sor-soran).

Commercially motivated keris? It is just IMHO...

This is just my "vague" response, as I am not an expert...

Thanks, a lot

GANJAWULUNG

David · 20th March 2010, 04:56 PM

Interestingly, Maurice has recently posted this sundang on the main forum with similiar greneng. Not sure where this one is from either, though Malay origin is being suggested on that thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11654

ganjawulung · 21st March 2010, 03:07 AM

Yes, interesting David,
With nine circular in the greneng section, and three in the sekar kacang part. And this picture below, just for comparing the ricikan (details) in the gandhik part -- between older Maduran keris and this suspicious sundang...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 21st March 2010, 03:16 AM

And the whole view, for size comparison. Maduran keris with eastern Jawa scabbard (without pendhok). I found this keris as it is. I didn't change the scabbard and the handle... The size is 42 cm without pesi (comparing to 52 the sundang). Older Maduran, and Eastern Jawa tends bigger in size than the central Jawa kerises. Eastern Jawa -- could means the Madurese who stayed in northern part of East Jawa, just across Madura island...

GANJAWULUNG

PenangsangII · 22nd March 2010, 07:02 AM

Regarding Alan's question on what's holding the ganja and the blade in place.... the ganja was drilled to tight fit pesi's size, and heated. Once heated, the hole became softer and flexible, so its fitted nicely when cold though normally a little gap can be seen

PenangsangII · 22nd March 2010, 07:05 AM

And though I cant be sure that my opinion is correct, the mismatched blade and dress are normally attributed to Kalimantan....

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2010, 07:38 AM

Penangsan, I do understand shrink fitting and have used it myself in non-keris related things.

Please note:- this is a square pesi.

Can you please advise the localities where shrink fitting of a ganja is normally carried out. I am only familar with two usual methods:- the keyway and the crimp. I doubt that I have seen a blade where the ganja was shrink fitted.

Is this a common method of fitting the ganja in Moro type keris?

PenangsangII · 22nd March 2010, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Penangsan, I do understand shrink fitting and have used it myself in non-keris related things.

Please note:- this is a square pesi.

Can you please advise the localities where shrink fitting of a ganja is normally carried out. I am only familar with two usual methods:- the keyway and the crimp. I doubt that I have seen a blade where the ganja was shrink fitted.

Is this a common method of fitting the ganja in Moro type keris?

Alan, my teacher, an Empu by Malaysian standard, use shrink fitting technique all the time, compare to pandai besi's standard who normally use glue or epoxy to hold the blade and ganja.... the drawback of using this technique however, a gap between blade and ganja would be visible (more or less).

Could you please elaborate the techniques you mentioned, the key way and the crimp.... is it the same as using a "pasak" to tighten the ganja to the pesi?

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2010, 11:13 AM

That's interesting information, Penangsang.

Very interesting.

However, I would imagine your teacher is fitting a round pesi to a round hole.

The pesi on this sundang is square.

When we fit a square shaft ( the pesi) to a square slot ( the cut in the ganja) there are unequal stresses at the square cut corners of the slot. The material in the ganja is of small mass, thus the stresses will not be great, however, they will exist, and if that ganja is of layer welded material , we could expect to see any imperfections in welding fail. Especially so when we realise that the sides of the oblong slot are very thin in comparison with the length from the pesi to each end of the ganja.

Still, as I have remarked, the mass is not great, so with perfect fitting, and a press fit of only a few thou, you'd possibly get away with it. Provided you did not go into high orange on the heating.

With a round hole and round shaft (pesi) the same unequal stresses do not occur, but are distributed evenly around the hole.

But then there is still one problem that is insurmountable with traditional hand-tool techniques, and that is the achievement of a tight fit betweem ganja and blade base. I've made a number of keris, and more than a few ganjas. To get a neat tight fit between ganja and blade base is a swine of a job that requires repeated fitting and filing or scraping.

If you want to do a shrink fit you do not have the possibility of achieving a tight fit of ganja to blade base, and anything less is simply not acceptable.

Now, if we consider the blade that is the subject of discussion here, we can see a reasonably close fit, and we can see a very considerable gap between the pesi and the ganja. Anybody who has the skill to hand cut a slot to a tolerance of the few thou needed to achieve a shrink fit, would certainly have the skill to cut that slot so that it fitted closely to the pesi at its top.

Yes, it is possible to shrink fit a ganja to a pesi, but it is not possible to use this fitting method with hand tools and achieve an acceptable fit to the blade base. Most especially so with a square cut pesi and slot.

The crimp method of fitting is where the hole is cut to a press fit on the pesi, and then a punch and hammer is used to tighten the ganja hole around the pesi. I have most often seen this method used in Bugis and Peninsula keris.

The key method of fitting involves cutting a keyway with a very small file into the side of the hole in the pesi, then a small key is made to fit that keyway --- a tiny piece of tapered steel --- which is driven home with a punch, thus tightening the ganja. Sloppy and lazy makers use a small nail instead of a purpose cut key. The best position for the key is at the buntut urang side of the pesi hole.

So to my mind, the question remains:- how is the ganja kept in place?

PenangsangII · 22nd March 2010, 01:26 PM

You are absolutely right Alan, the shrink fitting method is used to fix the round pesi into the round ganja hole - and according to my teacher, it is the old tradition (what ever that means...)

Although i dont have any sundang that was made by my teacher, I was told by him that is the only way for him to attach the ganja to the blade, be it on a keris or sundang.

And, your question about how the ganja is kept in place - would not it be securely kept in place when the ganja is mounted to the pesi when its tightly cold shrunk? Some of my kerises were made by my teacher, and the ganja were fitted this way... I have never experienced the ganja of my kerises loosen even after soaking them in citric acid solution, as compared to using glue or epoxy.....

Maybe I have not answered your question, if so, please rephrase it again as English is my third language after Malay and Javanese

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2010, 08:03 PM

Penangsan, if it is "the old tradition", all I can say is that any keris maker who could achieve a tight fit of the ganja to the blade base by using this shrink fit method knew a technique of mating metal surfaces that was far in advance of anything known today.

One of my sons owns a precision metal working factory. His normal work involves working to the smallest tolerances imaginable, and the mating of one flat metal surface to another flat metal surface. Using his state of the art methods he tells me he could mate the base of a ganja to the base of a blade with no gap, using a shrink fit method to fit the ganja. However, when I asked him if it were possible for him to do it with hand tools, he told me what I already knew:- impossible to achieve a neat fit.

That your teacher, and others before him , could achieve this neat fit by shrink fitting the ganja simply astounds me --- and for the most part Peninsula blades do have a neatly fitting ganja.

During my lifetime I have cleaned, stained, repaired a very large number of blades. I don't know how many, but a lot. Many of those blades were Peninsula blades, I would guess that most were from the 19th century. I cannot recall ever noticing a single blade, Peninsula or otherwise, that used a shrink fit ganja. Often a crimped ganja will appear to be a shrink fit, and it is only when you look very closely and see the punch marks around the pesi that you realise how it was fitted. Sometimes these punch marks might have been filed flat, and you can often detect this by use of a loupe.

Yes, of course a ganja that has been shrink fitted to the pesi will be kept tightly in place.

However, in the case of the blade under discussion I draw your attention to the large gap that is visible around the pesi:- any maker who could cut the pesi slot with such precision as to permit shrink fitting of the ganja could most certainly cut that slot to a neat fit around the top of the slot; additionally, the base of the pesi has been mated to the base of the blade with reasonable precision, yes, its not good, but it is certainly better than could be achieved at the first attempt with hand tools --- and shrink fitting demands that you get it right first time:- with a shrink fit you cannot remove and replace the ganja two or three hundred times until you get the mating of surfaces correct --- you need to get it right first time.

I'm waiting for Pak Ganja to dig some of the muck out from around the pesi and between the blade base and the pesi, and tell us just exactly how the ganja has been attached to this blade.

PenangsangII · 23rd March 2010, 03:29 AM

Thanks Alan for your lengthy explanation, and i now know precisely what you meant. Please allow me to clarify several matters:-

1) Keris made by my teacher where the ganja are attached to the pesi using shrink fit method do have gap between it and the blade, and I have not seen a neat fit on a single keris made by him.
2) My teacher learnt his trade from a guru who had learnt keris smithing in Cirebon, Indonesia. The "ilmu" is from Cirebon, and the gurus before him can be traced back to 8 generations. However, kerises made by him follow peninsula pakem with strong Cirebon/Pajajaran influence (actually there's no 100 percent defined Peninsula pakem that I know of).
3) My teacher pays more attention to "luck measurement" inside out compared to outer beauty alone.

"Keris yang baik adalah keris yang bermanafaat kepada tuannya" - the phrase he often told me......

I hope my ramblings above do not bore you Alan, and the rest of the readers as I have no intention to hijack this thread. I am waiting for Pak Ganja's response as well...

ganjawulung · 23rd March 2010, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...I'm waiting for Pak Ganja to dig some of the muck out from around the pesi and between the blade base and the pesi, and tell us just exactly how the ganja has been attached to this blade.

The best way to know how the "sundang" maker fitted the ganja to the square pesi, is to loose (open) both part. But of course, I won't do that in this "sundang" because it is still fitted and strong enough that you may not open with your barely hand...

To loop it again and again, well Alan, for this time being I can't do that either, while I can not handle or loop it -- 'cause the blade is in Jakarta while now I'm still far away in Neuchatel, Switzerland...

What I know is, it seems that the maker simply used both method -- either a shrink fit method, and using a smal "sindik" (round, needle sized metal?) in one square side, and the part which fit the ganja is bigger than outside part that you may see from outside pesi... To prove it, it is impossible not to unfit the ganja from the "sundang"... What I've seen is, that no trace of "epoxy" or other recent glueing process in this blade

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I hope my ramblings above do not bore you Alan, and the rest of the readers as I have no intention to hijack this thread. I am waiting for Pak Ganja's response as well...

No Penangsang, you didn't hijack but enriching the thread.. Sure, later in Jakarta, I will loop and loop again the part you just discussed.

Thanks a lot,
GANJAWULUNG (Neuchatel, March 23, 2010)

Greybeard · 23rd March 2010, 11:58 AM

Hello Ganjawulung

Welcome to Switzerland! I hope you'll enjoy
your stay here. BTW, I live near Aarau, in the
German speaking part of Switzerland.

Regards,

Heinz

A. G. Maisey · 23rd March 2010, 01:16 PM

No Penangsang, you don't bore me.

I think I now understand where you're coming from, and it seems that we are travelling in different directions.

Thank you for expanding your comments.

Thanks Pak Ganja.

It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used.

It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi.

If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint.

Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating.

A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.

ganjawulung · 23rd March 2010, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Welcome to Switzerland! I hope you'll enjoy
your stay here. BTW, I live near Aarau, in the
German speaking part of Switzerland.

Of course Heinz, I enjoy staying here although only two nights in the French speaking part of Switzerland in the lake-side of Neuchatel. This morning, is quite a long trip to certain places in the mountain side of La-Chaux-de-Fonds. No keris found, of course. But more than that: many state of the art watches factories in La-Chaux-de-Fonds. Amazing precision craftmanship... Unfortunately, this is my last night in Switzerland, and tomorrow will be another trip to Barcelona, Spain...

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used.
It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi.
If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint.
Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating.
A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.

Thanks a lot, Alan for your useful explanations. Salute. Later in Jakarta, I will loop more carefully the part you mention. Especially the black material you mention at the "tungkakan". Is it for fitting? Or just filling the gap between the blade and the ganja -- I mean recent filling the gap with black material, simply intending for just filling, and not fitting the ganja.... Also I will take a look and photo once again, a small spot in one square part of ganja's hole.

Once again, thanks a lot Alan for your knowledgeable explanation..

GANJAWULUNG (Neuchatel, March 23, 2010)

18th March 2010, 03:01 AM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	WHICH SUNDANG? Dear All, This old blade has been in my collection for almost one year. But it is still doubtful for me to say that it is a sundang. The type of "greneng" (I don't think this is the right term for it) is suspicious... If it is a sundang, then which sundang? Moro? Malay? Fake sundang? The sheath is suspicious too... It should not be the original one. GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

18th March 2010, 03:04 AM	#2
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Suspicious Sheath And not the original sheath, I think... Attached Images

18th March 2010, 05:32 AM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Pak Ganja, I am sorry, but I think this is a new sundang. The iron looks like it had been artificially aged. I had never seen a genuinely old sundang with this kind of iron. But this is just my blind guess. I hope i am wrong.. Just to add a bit, a few years back, i was shown by a relative their familiy's pusaka sundang. Everything looks Malay, but the greneng looks more towards Moro side. I guess, Malay sundang also uses Moro greneng.. Last edited by rasdan; 18th March 2010 at 05:44 AM.

18th March 2010, 09:10 AM	#6
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	No problem Pak Ganja. It is just my guess. It is good to know that you had learnt the ageing technique. I only know salt & sulphur and natural rusting. What i know is, if the blade is made of wrought iron, the combination of the above ageing methods would be enough to make blades look old. It is just that we have to be patient with the natural rusting process. One year of sun and rain, the blade would look rather antique. Perhaps you can enlighten us here on how artificial aging is being done? I also attached a picture of a sundang tang that supposedly had been aged. Unfortunately i don't know the ageing technique used. This sundang is probably from Madura. The ageing pattern is very convincing. Attached Images Last edited by rasdan; 18th March 2010 at 09:21 AM.

18th March 2010, 11:15 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Here are a few questions. 1)--- what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade? 2)--- is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core? 3)--- what method was used to produce the greneng? 4)--- does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade? 5)--- where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used? 6)--- why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle? The answers to these questions may assist in a determination of exactly what we are looking at here. Pity we don't have a time machine. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 18th March 2010 at 01:21 PM. Reason: unnecessary comment

18th March 2010, 03:43 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Pak Ganja, how long is the blade? and does the blade fit in nicely into the blade? From my limited experience, this confusing mixture of keris or sundangs pamor, ricikan, wrangka and hilt can be attributed to Kalimantan/Borneo whereby there were a lot of cultural mixture among the locals, Jawanese, Buginese and Sumatrans....

18th March 2010, 10:38 AM	#9
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Thanks for the explanation Pak Ganja. Sounds like the procedure is pretty much the same. I think Citreon liquid is probably citric acid that comes in the form of granules that is diluted in water. I think this method would give with different effect/result with different iron. Anyhow, thanks again for your kind explanation.

20th March 2010, 07:12 AM	#12
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Interesting discussion.. Pak Ganja, the blade looks like there's some age to it but not too old.. I like the upper half on the blade, but the base area.. are a lot off. It might be in a simpler form initially before its transformation. The 'greneng' area seems like drilled holes to me.. 10 number on the greneng area and 3 numbers on the 'kembang kacang' area to form the 'jenggot'.. the gandik area seems re-worked, (to me anyway). Alan's questions and my answers.. 1) what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade? - no idea. Not from the Northern Malay states (Terengganu, Kelantan, Pattani), not Moro, not Sulu.. 2) is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core? -no, imho.. 3) what method was used to produce the greneng? - a power drill (?).. 4) does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade? - not that I can see, (from the photos).. 5) where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used? - hmmm.. not Moro, afaik.. for Malay sundangs, I've yet to see this form. Most Borneo sundangs, have broader width and it's blade texture are mostly similar to Moro's.. afaik. 6) why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle? - good question.. fittings done in Indonesia(?).. handle mix-n-match(?).. Last edited by Alam Shah; 20th March 2010 at 07:48 AM.

20th March 2010, 08:34 AM	#13
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Conclusion for the time being: Commercially motivated sundang, forged of old steel, with ageing process... Made in Jawa? I will keep it, until I get a real sundang... Thanks a lot to all, for the discussion and your sharing... GANJAWULUNG

20th March 2010, 11:29 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Pak Ganja, your conclusion may very well be correct, but lets not stop with this job of examination only half done. Alam Shah has supplied some answers to my questions, so now I'd like to pose some more questions:- 1)--- when we see a very slim, whispy kembang kacang, what geographic locality do we usually associate that with? when we see a very steeply angled gandik, what geographic locality do we usually associate that with? 2)--- it is impossible to tell if there is filler between the gonjo and the blade, however, there is a considerable gap between the gonjo and the blade and it is full of something; only a loupe and a needle will tell if it is filler or not.Additionally, there appears to be a gap around the pesi:- what is holding the ganja in place? 3)--- AlamShah seems to think that this could not be a Malay blade, so where else might it come from? Are we used to seeing such a gap between the tungkakan and the ganja in Moro keris? 4)--- Pak Ganja has suggested that this blade might have been made in Jawa, as a commnercial undertaking, which I assume means recently. OK--- where in Jawa? Jogja? Solo? or maybe somewhere a little further East, say the province of East Jawa? 5) --- the pamor motif is adeg siji, a single strip of pamor in the center of the blade; in keris from what geographic locality is this a reasonably common pamor?

20th March 2010, 04:22 PM	#15
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Dear Alan, I've tried to watch this suspicious blade more carefully. And the whole impressions is that this blade doesn't seem completely new, although it is possible that the blade is forged from older metal material, and not todays material. That is why, my first impression to see this blade as old blade. The bending blade probably was quenched, from above the sor-soran until the tip of the blade -- it is the type of old technique of keris making. The Quenching technique ("disepuh"). (The upper blade become more corroded than the lower). At a glance, the overall shape is as the shape of sundang. Type of "keris pedang", combination form of keris and pedang. The maker of the blade, was probably had intention to make sundang, either Melayu or Moro -- seen from the very "steeply angled gandhik". Of course, this is not the style of javanese keris making. Also the awkward form of "sirah cecak". More "sundang" style than javanese keris style... But if you watch more carefully the details -- such as, the slim sekar kacang -- it remind me the style of older Maduran kerises (Sumolo?), with detail of "jenggot" above the sekar kacang... Regarding the pamor of "adeg siji", or you probably regard as "sada sak ler", it could be more eastern Jawa, than central. The size of the blade, also more east jawa -- tends bigger than central jawa kerises. (Later I will post pictures for comparison, between older Maduran keris and this blade. Especially we may compare the forms of details in the sor-soran). Commercially motivated keris? It is just IMHO... This is just my "vague" response, as I am not an expert... Thanks, a lot GANJAWULUNG

20th March 2010, 04:56 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Interestingly, Maurice has recently posted this sundang on the main forum with similiar greneng. Not sure where this one is from either, though Malay origin is being suggested on that thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11654 Attached Images

21st March 2010, 03:07 AM	#17
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Yes, interesting David, With nine circular in the greneng section, and three in the sekar kacang part. And this picture below, just for comparing the ricikan (details) in the gandhik part -- between older Maduran keris and this suspicious sundang... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

21st March 2010, 03:16 AM	#18
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	And the whole view, for size comparison. Maduran keris with eastern Jawa scabbard (without pendhok). I found this keris as it is. I didn't change the scabbard and the handle... The size is 42 cm without pesi (comparing to 52 the sundang). Older Maduran, and Eastern Jawa tends bigger in size than the central Jawa kerises. Eastern Jawa -- could means the Madurese who stayed in northern part of East Jawa, just across Madura island... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

22nd March 2010, 07:02 AM	#19
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Regarding Alan's question on what's holding the ganja and the blade in place.... the ganja was drilled to tight fit pesi's size, and heated. Once heated, the hole became softer and flexible, so its fitted nicely when cold though normally a little gap can be seen

22nd March 2010, 07:05 AM	#20
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	And though I cant be sure that my opinion is correct, the mismatched blade and dress are normally attributed to Kalimantan....

22nd March 2010, 07:38 AM	#21
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Penangsan, I do understand shrink fitting and have used it myself in non-keris related things. Please note:- this is a square pesi. Can you please advise the localities where shrink fitting of a ganja is normally carried out. I am only familar with two usual methods:- the keyway and the crimp. I doubt that I have seen a blade where the ganja was shrink fitted. Is this a common method of fitting the ganja in Moro type keris?

22nd March 2010, 11:13 AM	#23
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	That's interesting information, Penangsang. Very interesting. However, I would imagine your teacher is fitting a round pesi to a round hole. The pesi on this sundang is square. When we fit a square shaft ( the pesi) to a square slot ( the cut in the ganja) there are unequal stresses at the square cut corners of the slot. The material in the ganja is of small mass, thus the stresses will not be great, however, they will exist, and if that ganja is of layer welded material , we could expect to see any imperfections in welding fail. Especially so when we realise that the sides of the oblong slot are very thin in comparison with the length from the pesi to each end of the ganja. Still, as I have remarked, the mass is not great, so with perfect fitting, and a press fit of only a few thou, you'd possibly get away with it. Provided you did not go into high orange on the heating. With a round hole and round shaft (pesi) the same unequal stresses do not occur, but are distributed evenly around the hole. But then there is still one problem that is insurmountable with traditional hand-tool techniques, and that is the achievement of a tight fit betweem ganja and blade base. I've made a number of keris, and more than a few ganjas. To get a neat tight fit between ganja and blade base is a swine of a job that requires repeated fitting and filing or scraping. If you want to do a shrink fit you do not have the possibility of achieving a tight fit of ganja to blade base, and anything less is simply not acceptable. Now, if we consider the blade that is the subject of discussion here, we can see a reasonably close fit, and we can see a very considerable gap between the pesi and the ganja. Anybody who has the skill to hand cut a slot to a tolerance of the few thou needed to achieve a shrink fit, would certainly have the skill to cut that slot so that it fitted closely to the pesi at its top. Yes, it is possible to shrink fit a ganja to a pesi, but it is not possible to use this fitting method with hand tools and achieve an acceptable fit to the blade base. Most especially so with a square cut pesi and slot. The crimp method of fitting is where the hole is cut to a press fit on the pesi, and then a punch and hammer is used to tighten the ganja hole around the pesi. I have most often seen this method used in Bugis and Peninsula keris. The key method of fitting involves cutting a keyway with a very small file into the side of the hole in the pesi, then a small key is made to fit that keyway --- a tiny piece of tapered steel --- which is driven home with a punch, thus tightening the ganja. Sloppy and lazy makers use a small nail instead of a purpose cut key. The best position for the key is at the buntut urang side of the pesi hole. So to my mind, the question remains:- how is the ganja kept in place?

22nd March 2010, 01:26 PM	#24
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	You are absolutely right Alan, the shrink fitting method is used to fix the round pesi into the round ganja hole - and according to my teacher, it is the old tradition (what ever that means...) Although i dont have any sundang that was made by my teacher, I was told by him that is the only way for him to attach the ganja to the blade, be it on a keris or sundang. And, your question about how the ganja is kept in place - would not it be securely kept in place when the ganja is mounted to the pesi when its tightly cold shrunk? Some of my kerises were made by my teacher, and the ganja were fitted this way... I have never experienced the ganja of my kerises loosen even after soaking them in citric acid solution, as compared to using glue or epoxy..... Maybe I have not answered your question, if so, please rephrase it again as English is my third language after Malay and Javanese

22nd March 2010, 08:03 PM	#25
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Penangsan, if it is "the old tradition", all I can say is that any keris maker who could achieve a tight fit of the ganja to the blade base by using this shrink fit method knew a technique of mating metal surfaces that was far in advance of anything known today. One of my sons owns a precision metal working factory. His normal work involves working to the smallest tolerances imaginable, and the mating of one flat metal surface to another flat metal surface. Using his state of the art methods he tells me he could mate the base of a ganja to the base of a blade with no gap, using a shrink fit method to fit the ganja. However, when I asked him if it were possible for him to do it with hand tools, he told me what I already knew:- impossible to achieve a neat fit. That your teacher, and others before him , could achieve this neat fit by shrink fitting the ganja simply astounds me --- and for the most part Peninsula blades do have a neatly fitting ganja. During my lifetime I have cleaned, stained, repaired a very large number of blades. I don't know how many, but a lot. Many of those blades were Peninsula blades, I would guess that most were from the 19th century. I cannot recall ever noticing a single blade, Peninsula or otherwise, that used a shrink fit ganja. Often a crimped ganja will appear to be a shrink fit, and it is only when you look very closely and see the punch marks around the pesi that you realise how it was fitted. Sometimes these punch marks might have been filed flat, and you can often detect this by use of a loupe. Yes, of course a ganja that has been shrink fitted to the pesi will be kept tightly in place. However, in the case of the blade under discussion I draw your attention to the large gap that is visible around the pesi:- any maker who could cut the pesi slot with such precision as to permit shrink fitting of the ganja could most certainly cut that slot to a neat fit around the top of the slot; additionally, the base of the pesi has been mated to the base of the blade with reasonable precision, yes, its not good, but it is certainly better than could be achieved at the first attempt with hand tools --- and shrink fitting demands that you get it right first time:- with a shrink fit you cannot remove and replace the ganja two or three hundred times until you get the mating of surfaces correct --- you need to get it right first time. I'm waiting for Pak Ganja to dig some of the muck out from around the pesi and between the blade base and the pesi, and tell us just exactly how the ganja has been attached to this blade.

23rd March 2010, 03:29 AM	#26
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thanks Alan for your lengthy explanation, and i now know precisely what you meant. Please allow me to clarify several matters:- 1) Keris made by my teacher where the ganja are attached to the pesi using shrink fit method do have gap between it and the blade, and I have not seen a neat fit on a single keris made by him. 2) My teacher learnt his trade from a guru who had learnt keris smithing in Cirebon, Indonesia. The "ilmu" is from Cirebon, and the gurus before him can be traced back to 8 generations. However, kerises made by him follow peninsula pakem with strong Cirebon/Pajajaran influence (actually there's no 100 percent defined Peninsula pakem that I know of). 3) My teacher pays more attention to "luck measurement" inside out compared to outer beauty alone. "Keris yang baik adalah keris yang bermanafaat kepada tuannya" - the phrase he often told me...... I hope my ramblings above do not bore you Alan, and the rest of the readers as I have no intention to hijack this thread. I am waiting for Pak Ganja's response as well...

23rd March 2010, 11:58 AM	#28
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello Ganjawulung Welcome to Switzerland! I hope you'll enjoy your stay here. BTW, I live near Aarau, in the German speaking part of Switzerland. Regards, Heinz

23rd March 2010, 01:16 PM	#29
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	No Penangsang, you don't bore me. I think I now understand where you're coming from, and it seems that we are travelling in different directions. Thank you for expanding your comments. Thanks Pak Ganja. It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used. It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi. If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint. Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating. A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.