Swedish Cannon ??

[katana]

Mythbusters , a programme on TV re-created a swedish cannon consisting of of a bronze /copper thin inner bore surrounded with leather wrapping to strengthen it. Did these exist ?

The muzzle velocity was greater than a 'standard' cannon ....but the breach was blown out as the ball exited the muzzle.

Comments from our experts (yes you mickail ) would be appreciated, thank you
Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Hi David,
I happened to have some notes on hand from research a while back on leather cannons.
A reference titled "The Army of Gustavis Adolphus" Vol 2 (p.17) Richard Brzezinski, 1993 notes, "...the leather cannon was superceded in 1629 by a weapon that did not have the same tendancy to overheat and burst". The new version was small and bronze apparantly.
It seems that the first leather cannon was from Zurich c.1622 and an Austrian baron took them to Sweden c.1625.
In Polish Prussia 1627 there were 14 of these leather guns, last recorded use 1629.
Gustavus Adolphus had sought a lighter weapon with mobility to serve between the musket and stationary cannon. These were thin copper tubes strengthened by heavy ropes and finally clad in leather, alternately in leather straps then rope.
Unfortunately the reinforced material would not let the heat dissipate, and the heat from detonation would deform the barrel.

While an unusual premise, it does seem there were some successful leather cannon used by the Venetians, also mortars. There were leather cannon captured in campaigns in Nepal c.1792 as well, and while I cannot find the remainder of those notes, it seems that leather cannon were used by Chinese forces in those times in some degree as lightweight mobile artillery.
A type of leather cannon was fired successfully in Edinburgh in 1788 (I believe this was from "The Gun and Its Development" WW Greener, 1907).

Interesting topic, and I wanted to add these notes while looking forward to the Maestro's comments I'll bet Michael even has one of these!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

Hi David,

Thank you for considering me.

I think Jim put it so expertly that I cannot add anything substantial. We know that leather cannon existed so they must have stood the shooting. Personally, I can hardly imagine that but I am neither a physicist nor an engineer.

And Jim, thanks a lot for overestimating my collection! Actually I do own a small cannon which is illustrated in a few pictures of my collection posted here some time ago. The 15th c. barrel is of bronze though. I am preparing to post it in a thread of its own.

Best,
Michael/Mikhail/Michl

[Jim McDougall]

Michael, I never underestimate anything about you my friend! and thank you for the kind words on my patchy summary, which are simply from scribbled notes as this isway out of my field.

All I can recall is that there are two huge leather cannon in Tibet captured from Nepal in some museum, and there are questions on how functional they were. In the same campaigns it seems the Chinese forces were using some kind of leather cannon.
It goes to the mobility issues, and of course the British in the 19th century were striving for the same kind of mobility, but using conventional cannon that were dismantled and carried on pack mules. These were the 'mountain guns' and its hard to imagine these poor beasts trying to haul these things into the defiles of the Khyber or Hindu Kush!

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

OK, folks,

I realize it's my turn to present the real stuff.

Please see Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather_cannon

Attached please find pics and description of a so called 'leather' cannon, ca. 1620's, preserved in the Historisches Museum Berlin.

As David pointed out the barrel actually is of copper reinforced by iron, covered with strong (elk?) leather and bound with hemp, so it's not just all leather ...

I learned they have two pieces, their lengths being ca. 2 m and the caliber a one pounder and the other a one-and-a-half pounder.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

For further information, please refer to Anandalal N.'s thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10674

and to

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=680

We are a very good forum after all, and there's really a whole lot to learn here!!!

m

[Jim McDougall]

There you have it!!!! As I said before, the maestro !!!
and yes we are truly a great forum and as can be seen by these threads, there is outstanding knowledge out there.
The search feature is an amazing feature here as it opens the doors to all these wonderful archived threads. These resources are invaluable to members and lurkers alike as research ever continues on these topics. The only reason I always mention the lurkers is because I want you guys to join in!!!!

There is no reason to think that anything you say will be ridiculed or unimportant. Besides, I have played devils advocate many times knowing that my comments are likely to draw fire, and the resulting comments are often loaded with important previously unknown information. Its a win win deal!

Nicely done Michael! Thank you for reviving those threads and the comprehensive material, and thank you David for posting this...really interesting topic!

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

Thank you very much indeed as always, Jim!

Best,
Michael

[katana]

Thank you Jim and Michael ,
for your input. I can see that an artillery piece with 'portability' would have great tactical advantages in certain terrain or for rapid deployment during phases of a battle.

The cannon on 'Mythbusters' was not historically accurate ie dimensions etc. However the construction was fairly close. It was used to fire a solid ball and was compared to an iron barrelled cannon with the same 'bore'. As I said before interestingly the muzzle velocity was greater with the Swedish cannon. (I believe the powder charge was the same for both cannons). Unfortunately the 'breach' end was blown out and therefore was only fired once.
I suspect that, perhaps, the breach end was either incorrectly made or they had reproduced an earlier version (which was later modified).

Even with the overheating problem they still seem that they would be reasonably effective. I would think that if a smaller charge was used to propel grape shot it could have been a useful 'anti-personnel' weapon. Even if the copper barrel was slightly deformed by the heat ....grape shot would still exit....a full cannon ball might not with the obvious consequences

Quick moving artillery would be a massive advantage during a battle....perhaps if the Swedes had utilised this cannon as a large 'shotgun' ...it may have proved its worth

Summary from Mythbusters...........

"... For comparison, the Build Team fired a Civil War Parrott gun of similar size to the cannons described in the myth to measure its muzzle velocity, which was 389 mph (626 km/h). Because there are two separate versions of the myth, originating from Sweden and Ireland, the Build Team decided to test both designs. The Swedish cannon consisted of a copper core wrapped in leather and iron bands, while the Irish cannon was built completely out of leather. The Swedish cannon managed to fire its cannonball at a speed of 450 mph (720 km/h), but blew out its breech in the process. The Irish cannon failed spectacularly, with the breech blowing out, the cannonball moving only two feet, and the barrel completely unravelling, making a second shot impossible. They then built a third leather cannon and reinforced it with significantly more leather. They also lubricated the barrel to make it easier for the cannonball to fire. The cannon managed to fire successfully, but the cannonball could only achieve a speed of 52 mph (84 km/h). While the cannon was still structurally intact, the barrel was too damaged for a second shot......."

Kind Regards David

[katana]

One of the threads posted by Micheal has a link stating that the 'Swedish cannon' idea was brought back and modified by Captain of Infantry; Robert Scott and was sucessfully used in English civil war.

http://home.earthlink.net/~dgshinn/companyinfo.html

This 're-inactment group' have built a functional version from x-ray images of a surviving cannon.

".........Our leather cannon is constructed like the original, with a copper core, sleeved in a steel tube held in place by a steel cage, wrapped with rope, plastered and covered with linen and the leather casing shrunk on the tube and over a wooden cannon muzzle and breech ring. The only departures are the steel tube sealed with its threaded breech plug rather than the cast amalgam used a to seal the breech of the wrought iron original. The simpler design adopted suffered serious design flaws that plagued it throughout the War. The Ripp design overcomes these and likewise offers greater strength solving in large degree the age-old failure of iron tubes subjected to the wet swab that eventually cracked the casing, by using a cooper core and the cage that helped dissipate heat. No doubt its added weight and expense though made it prohibitive to adopt on large scale. Our carriage design is taken from an original leather cannon....."

Regards David

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... We are a very good forum after all, and there's really a whole lot to learn here!!!

Is this one already here?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...leather+cannon

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much, 'Nando,

For bringing this up. I admit having overlooked this great thread.

m

[Andi]

Here are some photos of a called leather cannon which I took during my last visit to Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nuremberg, Germany.

Leather Canon calibre 37 mm on a lafette bearing the coat of arms of Paris of Lodron, 1619-1653 archbishop of Salzburg. Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg Inventory Number W 614. Barrel made of a thin copper tube, reinforced with hemp ropes, wood, leather and iron. Carriage made of wood and iron.

You will find the full resolution images on Wikipedia-Commons
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...mberg_W614.jpg

[Marcus den toom]

A nice "scottish" leather cannon? I don't see much leather but the article says they leather so (http://leatherworkingreverend.wordpr...eather-cannon/)

[Enmetena]

This is my first post here so I want to say Hello to everybody.

In Polish Army Museum (Muzeum Wojska Polskiego) in Warsaw, there is a leather cannon (or maybe 2) taken from Swedish troops. There is a 17th cent description of this gun written in 1629. My friend found it and post on his blog:
http://kadrinazi.blogspot.com/2010/0...obleczono.html

It is in polish so here is my rough translation:
"His Majesty was watching 2 leather guns, that among others were taken from Swedes in a battle. The barrel inside is made from gunmetal, cast, tin at mouth and thick at the bottom. This barrel was tight wrapped with thick, tarred rope, Whole barrel was then drenched with tar and wrapped with leather. This machine is a size of a good field gun, and so light that only one (even poor) horse can pull it. You can shoot it like real metal gun. Some say its Adolphus Gustavus own invention, the others that its Philip Mansfeld's, it was made for fast moving while marching."

On my friend blog there is also a link to Davida Stevenson and Davida H. Calldwell work: Leather guns and other light artillery in mid-17th-century Scotland

[Jim McDougall]

Enmetena welcome!!! and thank you for this most interesting post!
It is absolutely wonderful when new members arrive and especially when they add new evidence and examples toward the topic at hand, as you have done here.
Please tell us more on your own collecting interests and looking forward to more posts from you.

All very best regards,
Jim