Strange Indo persian dagger info needed.

mjamerks · 1st April 2014, 02:07 PM

Hi All

Would like to know more about this dagger.
It has a rectangual blade (armor piercing?)
Walrus Ivory grip.
Some traces of gold to the blade.
Length is 40cm.
Maybe the steel is wootz but this is hard to see.
Would like to know age and origin.
My feeling says its Ottoman (court dagger)?
Would like to hear your opinions.
Thanks!

ALEX · 1st April 2014, 04:14 PM

It is Ottoman. Could be a marriage of Court dagger handle and a Hancer dagger blade. the handle could be retrofitted for crossguard or bolster, and the blade yet another later addition. it is of substantial age. Is the ridge on one side only? Here's another hancer dagger without the ridge.

mjamerks · 1st April 2014, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

It is Ottoman. I think the handle could be a later retrofit for crossguard or bolster, and the blade is yet another later addition. Is the ridge on one side only?

The blade has 4 ridges and as far as I can see the grip and blade are very tight and looks like they Original to each other

ALEX · 1st April 2014, 04:31 PM

both handle and blade are of substantial age, so could be original or of same period. The handle had some sort of attachment in the past, so this made me think it was lost and blade added later.. just a guess. I've seen at least one Ottoman blade with 4 ridges, and it was quite old, around 17 century, so they are known. I think others may have more suggestions. Its an interesting dagger

mjamerks · 1st April 2014, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

both handle and blade are of substantial age, so could be original or of same period. The handle had some sort of attachment in the past, so this made me think it was lost and blade added later.. just a guess. I've seen at least one Ottoman blade with 4 ridges, and it was quite old, around 17 century, so they are known. I think others may have more suggestions. Its an interesting dagger

Hi Alex
Thanks for the info.
I would like to get the guard restored but have no idear what it has looked like,a ring or a crossguard?

ALEX · 1st April 2014, 05:44 PM

I'd advise not to add anything, and leave it as is. There's not much to base the restoration on and it's better not to disturb it's character and to leave it untouched).

CharlesS · 1st April 2014, 06:00 PM

I'm think it's a cut down and curved bayonet blade added to an Ottoman hilt and is clearly missing its original bolster....which may also have hidden the mystery of whether the two were meant to be together or not.

mjamerks · 1st April 2014, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I'm think it's a cut down and curved bayonet blade added to an Ottoman hilt and is clearly missing its original bolster....which may also have hidden the mystery of whether the two were meant to be together or not.

The blade has on the base on all 4 sides remains of gold inlay,so I dont believe its an old bayonet blade.see extra pics

napoleon · 2nd April 2014, 01:55 PM

nice walrus handle, i could be wrong but it looks like a marriage to my eyes,the blade looks like its from european smallsword re shaped perhaps

A.alnakkas · 2nd April 2014, 04:57 PM

Looks like a genuine item. Was there smallswords with 4 ridges made curved? everything is possible, but this item would have looked alot better if the missing part was there.

mjamerks · 2nd April 2014, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Looks like a genuine item. Was there smallswords with 4 ridges made curved? everything is possible, but this item would have looked alot better if the missing part was there.

If you see it in real you can see that the steel and shape of the blade is well made in that way,also the proportion in relation to the grip.
What can be the missing part shape etc maybe a simple silver ring of 5mm thickness?

russel · 3rd April 2014, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjamerks

What can be the missing part shape etc maybe a simple silver ring of 5mm thickness?

The recesses in the ivory suggest a four-sided quillon arrangement to me. (just an idea)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th April 2014, 07:23 PM

Brown Bess Bayonet?

mjamerks · 5th April 2014, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Brown Bess Bayonet?

The blade has 4 ridges and traces of gold at the base.

ALEX · 5th April 2014, 08:24 PM

I tend to agree, it is likely a bayonet blade. it's an old marriage though. the gold was added to make it more decorative

spiral · 6th April 2014, 12:16 AM

Brown bess bayonets only have 3 ridges not 4.

But mjamerks although despite description of 4 ridges, this can not be seen in the pics, , can we have a photo of other side of blade & hilt please to confirm ?

Thank you.

spiral

Robert · 6th April 2014, 02:07 AM

I believe that this shows both sides of the blade on this dagger as the hole in the hilt is broken out on one side and not not the other. I hope this is of some help until better photos can be added by Mjamerks.

Best,
Robert

mjamerks · 6th April 2014, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

I believe that this shows both sides of the blade on this dagger as the hole in the hilt is broken out on one side and not not the other. I hope this is of some help until better photos can be added by Mjamerks.

Best,
Robert

Hi Robbert

Hereby pics of all 4 sides.
every side is 1 cm wide,the blade is exactly 30 cm long.
Martin

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th April 2014, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Brown bess bayonets only have 3 ridges not 4.

But mjamerks although despite description of 4 ridges, this can not be seen in the pics, , can we have a photo of other side of blade & hilt please to confirm ?

Thank you.

spiral

Lebel Model 1886 ? That has 4. It could perhaps be a cut down sword stick... or some variant gilded bayonet used in hunting..?

mjamerks · 7th April 2014, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Lebel Model 1886 ? That has 4. It could perhaps be a cut down sword stick... or some variant gilded bayonet used in hunting..?

The ridges of a lebel bayonet are much thicker,compared with this blade the ridge is very thin almost sharp also the point is different compared with a lebel bayonet.
Maybe it is not a bayonet at all but made in the shape it is specially.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th April 2014, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjamerks

The ridges of a lebel bayonet are much thicker,compared with this blade the ridge is very thin almost sharp also the point is different compared with a lebel bayonet.
Maybe it is not a bayonet at all but made in the shape it is specially.

Could be.. but doubtful... I suggest either a hunting bayonet remodelled as a dagger or one of the other weapons... a lancehead or snapped sword or sword stick fashioned into a dagger. see http://www.truefork.org/Photography/...ant_Angelo.php for a quadrangular blade...but there many possibilities.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th April 2014, 09:07 AM

Then again~ what we could be looking at may be related to "Dague Miséricorde" style...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ALEX · 12th April 2014, 03:43 PM

The blade could be something similar to this. This one is not bayonet's, could be a spear, alam or something similar. I've seen another Ottoman dagger with a huge ivory handle and short 4-edged blade - an obvious old retrofit. these types are not common and likely old put-togethers from different parts.

mjamerks · 10th May 2014, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

I tend to agree, it is likely a bayonet blade. it's an old marriage though. the gold was added to make it more decorative

FYI
I will put this dagger for sale on ebay.

Rgds

Martin

Andrew · 10th May 2014, 10:19 PM

Thank you for the advice.

A

1st April 2014, 02:07 PM	#1
mjamerks Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: netherlands Posts: 108	Strange Indo persian dagger info needed. Hi All Would like to know more about this dagger. It has a rectangual blade (armor piercing?) Walrus Ivory grip. Some traces of gold to the blade. Length is 40cm. Maybe the steel is wootz but this is hard to see. Would like to know age and origin. My feeling says its Ottoman (court dagger)? Would like to hear your opinions. Thanks! Attached Images

1st April 2014, 04:14 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	It is Ottoman. Could be a marriage of Court dagger handle and a Hancer dagger blade. the handle could be retrofitted for crossguard or bolster, and the blade yet another later addition. it is of substantial age. Is the ridge on one side only? Here's another hancer dagger without the ridge. Attached Images Last edited by ALEX; 1st April 2014 at 04:25 PM.

6th April 2014, 02:07 AM	#17
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I believe that this shows both sides of the blade on this dagger as the hole in the hilt is broken out on one side and not not the other. I hope this is of some help until better photos can be added by Mjamerks. Best, Robert Attached Images

12th April 2014, 03:43 PM	#23
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	The blade could be something similar to this. This one is not bayonet's, could be a spear, alam or something similar. I've seen another Ottoman dagger with a huge ivory handle and short 4-edged blade - an obvious old retrofit. these types are not common and likely old put-togethers from different parts. Attached Images

1st April 2014, 04:31 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	both handle and blade are of substantial age, so could be original or of same period. The handle had some sort of attachment in the past, so this made me think it was lost and blade added later.. just a guess. I've seen at least one Ottoman blade with 4 ridges, and it was quite old, around 17 century, so they are known. I think others may have more suggestions. Its an interesting dagger

1st April 2014, 05:44 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I'd advise not to add anything, and leave it as is. There's not much to base the restoration on and it's better not to disturb it's character and to leave it untouched).

1st April 2014, 06:00 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I'm think it's a cut down and curved bayonet blade added to an Ottoman hilt and is clearly missing its original bolster....which may also have hidden the mystery of whether the two were meant to be together or not.

2nd April 2014, 01:55 PM	#9
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	nice walrus handle, i could be wrong but it looks like a marriage to my eyes,the blade looks like its from european smallsword re shaped perhaps

2nd April 2014, 04:57 PM	#10
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Looks like a genuine item. Was there smallswords with 4 ridges made curved? everything is possible, but this item would have looked alot better if the missing part was there.

5th April 2014, 07:23 PM	#13
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Brown Bess Bayonet?

5th April 2014, 08:24 PM	#15
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I tend to agree, it is likely a bayonet blade. it's an old marriage though. the gold was added to make it more decorative

6th April 2014, 12:16 AM	#16
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Brown bess bayonets only have 3 ridges not 4. But mjamerks although despite description of 4 ridges, this can not be seen in the pics, , can we have a photo of other side of blade & hilt please to confirm ? Thank you. spiral

10th April 2014, 09:07 AM	#22
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Then again~ what we could be looking at may be related to "Dague Miséricorde" style... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

10th May 2014, 10:19 PM	#25
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thank you for the advice. A