Garuda Kris

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gavin,


I agree that this is a great piece.

However, I believe it does not belong to this thread as the pommel is of a different style: Clearly this one is crafted in a highly decorated sarimanok/kakatua style.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

I respectfully disagree with regards to exclusion.

Perhaps these images grouped together, they may highlight the importance of this example within context of the discussion.

Apart from the side panels highlighted, looking at the IFICAH example in detail there is a tiny little Bunja Tanjong flower where one may expect an eye to appear, (Refer to the other Sarawak carvings shared and the British Museum Kampilan notations).

In isolation it may mean nothing more than this is a Malay states thing, but seen in the last image, similar appear on the top faces of these Kris/Sundang too, and also within some side panels.

A recent discussion with a fellow collector pointed out that these may also be the Catmon flower seen in Visayan carvings, yet it seems 8 out 10 Visayan carvers do not include the Pistil in their motifs, nor is a weapon of this type typically found there.

Gavin

[Ian]

Hi Gavin,

This is a very interesting observation that you make. I think that this picture is the most compelling evidence that you presented.

The positioning and shape of the "flower" in each example is very similar indeed. Your thesis that the familiar kakatua pommel (or sarimanok as some call it) on Moro kris hearkens back to an earlier representation of garuda will set the cat among the pigeons so to speak.

An innovative idea and worthy of discussion, perhaps in its own thread.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Gavin,

This is a very interesting observation that you make. I think that this picture is the most compelling evidence that you presented.

Attachment 225595

The positioning and shape of the "flower" in each example is very similar indeed. Your thesis that the familiar kakatua pommel (or sarimanok as some call it) on Moro kris hearkens back to an earlier representation of garuda will set the cat among the pigeons so to speak.

An innovative idea and worthy of discussion, perhaps in its own thread.

Hi Ian,

I've not yet any foot in either camp as to what the symbolism actually is, only what I see with what was previously presented and how I view iconography within this thread.

I think the visual references in a number of threads I've provided do suggest that it could well be... but I make the propositions because I am interested in insights about such things and to promote discussion.

The truth of the matter is, without a time machine, we will never really know... however discussion is important to develop idea and look at parallels within regions that share different cultures.

Like that Biblical inscription on the Kampilan, although drawn from the Koran, a very atypical thing to find as was the notion that it's hilt could potentially have been a Garuda representation, just as these hilts/pommels could be... it's all chicken/egg stuff though...

A good perspective, a discussion that has been ongoing for two hundred years, perhaps longer.
https://ayalamuseum.org/collection/1...%20god%20Indra).

Looking at some of the humanoid "Jawa Demam exotic hilts presented, could they actually represent angels and the floral motifs and tree of life motifs or mirror panels be symbolic of paradise.
Gabriel is particularly noted in the Koran and is the most important angel in Islam. The Angel Jibreel’s main responsibility is to communicate the Words of Allah to His prophets.
That would be pretty potent symbolism to carry.

More thoughts on the subject.

Gavin

[kai]

Hello Gavin,

Apart from the side panels highlighted, looking at the IFICAH example in detail there is a tiny little Bunja Tanjong flower where one may expect an eye to appear, (Refer to the other Sarawak carvings shared and the British Museum Kampilan notations).

Ok, I agree that there may be related/same motifs/etc. found in different types of hilts. Ian's suggestion to discuss such overarching concepts in a separate thread may help to avoid detracting from the pommel type discussed here. OTOH, it may be considered fair game here as well since this hilt type's underlying meaning probably can't be established without discussing missing links from all over the archipelago.

A recent discussion with a fellow collector pointed out that these may also be the Catmon flower seen in Visayan carvings, yet it seems 8 out 10 Visayan carvers do not include the Pistil in their motifs, nor is a weapon of this type typically found there.

Such a motif may well hark back to pre-Christian as well as pre-Islamic times. Back then, the coastal areas of all southern and central islands will have been settled by pretty much the same seafaring peoples of Malay origin.

Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning).


I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Kai,

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gavin,

Ok, I agree that there may be related/same motifs/etc. found in different types of hilts. Ian's suggestion to discuss such overarching concepts in a separate thread may help to avoid detracting from the pommel type discussed here. OTOH, it may be considered fair game here as well since this hilt type's underlying meaning probably can't be established without discussing missing links from all over the archipelago.

I'm in the OTOH basket... they've already been presented and the type require context. Further to this, from the type presented, there have been other related type thrown in because of regional crossovers.

Originally Posted by kai

Such a motif may well hark back to pre-Christian as well as pre-Islamic times. Back then, the coastal areas of all southern and central islands will have been settled by pretty much the same seafaring peoples of Malay origin.Kai

Indeed, almost anything is plausible within the time and place parameters.

Originally Posted by kai

Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning).

Where the Malay states are concerned, I note The Spirit of Wood and the Bunja Tanjong flower. See Spirit of wood, page 10 and numerous other references in the index.

Originally Posted by kai

I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for the ongoing discussions.

[Gavin Nugent]

Just a little side line/note with the variations of these Kris/Sundang types seen within thus far.

I look at it like the Bugis Keris hulu.

I know this is not the keris forum, but entertain me for this post as purely an indicative representation.

I see within types, more a metamorphous of what they represent over an evolution of the type through time.

Point in case these three ivory Bugis Hulu.

When I see these three in context, which do cover most "general" aspects of the type, in a spiritual context of life's cycle, I see #1 growth upwards, #2 Maturing, eyes forward and growth/seeking, #3 Full maturity, the weight that it carries, and the decent back to where it all started...

Idle ramblings of a mad man, but perhaps something like this "metamorphous" can be applied to the type under discussion, perhaps even a status indicator of "lineage" within the region, an earn your stripes type of thing... from the simplest timber types of the worker bees, to the established and capable man about town with fine ivory carving and twistcore, to the elder who survived it all, made his way to the top and shows his wealth in precious metals like Datu Piang and no doubt others before him.

Edit note **Notice they all have the side "wings" within their carvings**

[Gavin Nugent]

Just because, and that I enjoy talking to myself... I get the most sense that way :-P

Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there....

[kai]

Thanks, Gavin, for keeping this going!

Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there....

Yes, it has been my working hypothesis, that these hilt styles might likely be related. Not sure whether one developed from the other or possibly both from any earlier ancestral style.

There are strong historic links between the (especially eastern) Malay Peninsula, Brunei, and Bangsa Moro.

Regards,
Kai

[SanibelSwassa]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Just because, and that I enjoy talking to myself... I get the most sense that way :-P

Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there....

Gavin,

I wanted to take a second to thank you and others for the wealth of thought and effort put into discussing this topic and for the willingness to explore. I apologize for being MIA and will try to continue to at to the discussion as I find new examples and evidence. I still lean toward a root based outside the traditional muslin influence, but obviously a firm answer may not ever be attainable. However, there is joy in the journey!!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kai

I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

Still looking forward to your insights Kai....

[kai]

Still looking forward to your insights Kai....

Apologies, Gavin - too much on my plate and just forgot to follow up.