A different Pamor which is not folded but pasted

[HughChen]

I have learned that Keris was forged in such a procedure that 2 layers of billet are folded & welded and in the end a core of the blade will be inserted into the middle of the 2 layers from our forum, thanks to Maisey.

Today I discuss with a friend, he told me that this Keris was forged quiet differently. There are only two very thin outside layers of billet which has Pamor are pasted in the thick core.

That explain why some of the pamor was lost. it's becasue the outside layers are very thin.

My friend believes that this is an even older craft for dealing with precious meteorites. He told me that due to the high value of meteoric iron, it was not used in the form of large steel ingots in ancient times, but rather in small pieces.That's why we think this blade is at lest 200 years old.

Do you agree with the former opinion? Wish your valuable opinions, Thanks!

[HughChen]

More pics

[A. G. Maisey]

These two keris have the same type of pamor, that is, "mlumah", or "laying down pamor" this type of pamor is made as I have already described and is placed on either side of the core as I have described, with the layers of material parallel to the core.

The reason that they look so different is because the Bugis(?) style blade has been subjected to minimal carving & the pamor material has not been surface manipulated prior to being carved. The Bali style blade has had the pamor material manipulated by punch work or grinding & has been heavily carved to produce the odo-odo.

Exposure of core in the Bugis blade is minimal, exposure of core in the Bali blade is greater.

The Bali blade looks as if it started with fewer layers of pamor than did the Bugis blade.

The blades were both made using the same basic process, but were subjected to different treatment during that process & came from the forge with different number of pamor layers.

Each blade is a common representative of its type, nothing special, nothing different, same process of manufacture but subjected to different treatment during that manufacture.

As for meteoritic pamor, that subject has been addressed multiple times in this forum, & I really don't feel like ploughing the same field again. Somebody else might like to lay the story out, or even a while spent with the search function might help. Here might be a good place to start:-

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=207340

I have made a number of blades using meteor as the contrasting material, no keris using meteor, but I did prepare some meteoritic material for another craftsman to produce a couple of keris, the blades I made that included meteoritic material were damascus blades with meteor included to add contrast. Once the meteoritic material is clean there is no difference in welding it than in welding nickel as an inclusion.

In fact, although we talk about the number of layers of pamor material in a keris, these are really nominal layers, we might have done X number of folds & welds, but with each weld we lose some of the material, then when we begin to carve the blade we lose more, so we might have produced a forging that has a nominal 128 layers of pamor, but if we cut it and etch the cut we might find many less than 128 layers, and the number of remaining layers will vary from place to place throughout the length of the billet.

200 years is not particularly old for a keris blade. In fact, very early keris, say, keris that pre-date 1500 usually have quite simple pamor, and the earliest type of keris, the Keris Buda has no pamor at all.

[Gustav]

I completely endorse everything Alan wrote, except for the fact, that Bali/Lombok Keris in question more likely has a Pamor, which is created by twisting a rod, consisting of layers of different metals. In this case on both sides of core there is one such twisted Pamor material rod. In this case it woudn't be Pamor Mlumah, but Pamor Miring or Pamor Puntiran, depending of perspective.

The Odo-Odo quite disturbs the usual impression of this Pamor effect.

Not so often seen in Lombok, quite rare in Bali (in time period from this Keris could come).

[A. G. Maisey]

Pamor miring?

I think not Gustav, but we all can only form our opinions based upon our experience.

[Gustav]

Well, I guess, there apparently should be something besides experience.

[A. G. Maisey]

Totally agreed Gustav, I am well aware that there are lot of people who can form opinions based on absolutely no relevant experience at all.

For instance, many politicians can come up with wonderful opinions based upon what they would like to be the fact, but which is not.

I can understand why you, & perhaps other people as well, might think that this Bali blade has been made with pamor miring, I'll tell you why I believe it to be pamor mlumah.

1) if we look carefully at the white lines of contrasting pamor material what we can see is that those lines flow lengthwise along the blade, where a line of white pamor curves, that curve has been caused by the contour of the blade that was created by carving and by hot work manipulation, it has not been caused by twisting.
When a layered bar is twisted, the lines of pamor form angles across the blade, they do not form straight layers of pamor that flow along the blade. You can see this yourself if you select one of the short, straight lines of white pamor, and then move to the other side of the odo-odo and see where that same layer of pamor emerges from the black iron. We can often follow the same line of white pamor along the length of the blade, periodically interrupted where it is covered by black iron.

2) in some places in the body of the blade we can see a continuous exposure of white pamor material, this is pretty obvious on top of, & along, the odo-odo. This feature will not be found in a pamor that has been created by twisting.

3) this particular variation of wos wutah (beras wutah, wosing wutah) is pamor wusing wutah gedhegan, it is only one of the many known variations of wos wutah used in Balinese keris.

4) I have seen this pamor being made, not once, but several times, the contorted lines of pamor are created by surface manipulation, ie, punching and/or filing, this surface manipulation is further altered when the blade is carved.

If we just look at a finished blade it is often extremely difficult to understand how it has been made & how the pamor pattern has been created, but if we have seen enough of that type of blade, and have had the experience of seeing it made, & of making similar patterns ourselves, then it is relatively easy to understand the process that created it.

This difficulty in understanding is not limited to people living outside the areas where we find an active keris culture, there are many people living in keris culture areas who have not the vaguest idea of how a craftsman works, and in reality, the only way to gain that understanding is to learn how to do it yourself. I did not learn to make keris because I wanted to earn my living as a keris maker, my own profession pays very much better than making blades. I spent many years and a great deal of money in learning how to make keris because I wanted to fully understand how this was done. Back in the 1970's & before, the whole thing was still one big, unsolved mystery, and for many people , it still is.

There is a book named "Keris Bali", the author is Ida Bagus Dibia, it was published in 1995. I.B. Dibia was a serious, educated, Balinese gentleman with lengthy & strong interest in keris.

I will not comment on his writings, but I do recommend that if ever you get the opportunity to read this book, then you must do so. The knowledge you will gain from reading this book --- it is tri-lingual, Indonesian, French, English --- will give you some understanding of how far generally available keris knowledge & understanding has progressed in the last 30 years.

For those people who have a good understanding of keris manufacture, a reading of Groneman's "The Javanese Keris" will also demonstrate just how little was understood in the past.

Of course the generalised use of the internet has contributed greatly to this, hours & even days spent in public libraries & museums have now been pruned to asking Dr. Google a few pointed questions.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

These two keris have the same type of pamor, that is, "mlumah", or "laying down pamor" this type of pamor is made as I have already described and is placed on either side of the core as I have described, with the layers of material parallel to the core.

The reason that they look so different is because the Bugis(?) style blade has been subjected to minimal carving & the pamor material has not been surface manipulated prior to being carved. The Bali style blade has had the pamor material manipulated by punch work or grinding & has been heavily carved to produce the odo-odo.

Exposure of core in the Bugis blade is minimal, exposure of core in the Bali blade is greater.

The Bali blade looks as if it started with fewer layers of pamor than did the Bugis blade.

The blades were both made using the same basic process, but were subjected to different treatment during that process & came from the forge with different number of pamor layers.

Each blade is a common representative of its type, nothing special, nothing different, same process of manufacture but subjected to different treatment during that manufacture.

As for meteoritic pamor, that subject has been addressed multiple times in this forum, & I really don't feel like ploughing the same field again. Somebody else might like to lay the story out, or even a while spent with the search function might help. Here might be a good place to start:-

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=207340

I have made a number of blades using meteor as the contrasting material, no keris using meteor, but I did prepare some meteoritic material for another craftsman to produce a couple of keris, the blades I made that included meteoritic material were damascus blades with meteor included to add contrast. Once the meteoritic material is clean there is no difference in welding it than in welding nickel as an inclusion.

In fact, although we talk about the number of layers of pamor material in a keris, these are really nominal layers, we might have done X number of folds & welds, but with each weld we lose some of the material, then when we begin to carve the blade we lose more, so we might have produced a forging that has a nominal 128 layers of pamor, but if we cut it and etch the cut we might find many less than 128 layers, and the number of remaining layers will vary from place to place throughout the length of the billet.

200 years is not particularly old for a keris blade. In fact, very early keris, say, keris that pre-date 1500 usually have quite simple pamor, and the earliest type of keris, the Keris Buda has no pamor at all.

Hi, Alan, thank you for your explanation. But, if it's layers of billet parallel to the core being carved to form the odo-odo, wouldn't the apparence looks like this picture（it's a Damascus steel known for it's folded lines ）?

For folded steel with many layers, if we cut a section or a bevel, we will be able to see many parallel lines because the steel block is folded in multiple layers, and the welded lines can be seen in the bevel or cut surface. But this keris does not show these layered features in the odo-odo and the bevel caused by the slotted middle. So, I guess, is this keris carved first, including the formation of odo-odo, the groove of the sword, and then welded with a thin layer of Palmer?