![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
|
![]()
Hello Everyone, uncovered these two recently and am posting them for interest and?or comment.
The spear has quite a long narrow blade, 43 ins including socket x 1.75 ins at widest point and has a central rib. the iron spike end is 35.5 ins including socket and the wooden handle is 4 ins long making a total length of 82.5 ins. The sword ( Seme) has an O/L of 23 ins and a blade length of 17.5 ins varying from 0.875 ins to 2.125 ins in width with a central ridge. The scabbard is leather and together with the hilt is coloured red. thank you. Miguel |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,200
|
![]()
I want to say that they are both Masai, in Kenya.
The spear is known as a "lion spear" and yes the sword is a seme. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 422
|
![]()
Is the seme scabbard (and grip) fairly new? Or recently re-coloured?
The blade looks old (newer ones are usually made from machete blades and don't look like short fat lion spear blades), and if the colour is old, it's survived very well. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,200
|
![]()
The seme does look newish, doesn't it?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,730
|
![]()
So far I know are the really old seme blades look like Timo described and older ones have a central rib like the one in question and from the middle of the 20th centry were used flat blades from recycled machete blades or other material. But like the others said, the colour look really fresh, early collected in it's life or recent, the only two possibilities IMVHO.
![]() The lion spear look like it has some good age. Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 7th May 2017 at 09:41 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,730
|
![]()
The first two pictures show seme like from Timo described, the real old ones. Third picture show an older example with similar blade shape like Miguels one, the last picture an example from recent times but used.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
|
![]()
Thank you Battara, Timo and Detlef for your comments and photos which are much appreciated. I think Timo`s suggestion that the Seme is an older one that has had the hilt recovered and the scabbard replaced or re-coloured is most likely to be correct. From what I have read about the Seme the older ones besides having median ridges also had ribbed hilts as shown on the third photo posted by Detlef whereas the handle on mine is smooth as on the later ones, also both the hilt and scabbard show little signs of wear. Thank you again.
Miguel |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,430
|
![]()
Probably 1960-1970s in date.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
|
![]() Quote:
Miguel |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,730
|
![]() Quote:
![]() Regards, Detlef |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,430
|
![]()
As far as I know, the seme blade being hand-forged with a mid-rib, is not in itself an indicator of age. Flat sheet steel blades for semes, pangas etc have been in use for quite a long time. I saw myself the Masai in Kenya carrying spears, bows & arrows etc., when guarding their cattle in the late 1970s early 1980s. Probably they still do. They are also made for the tourist trade.
I remember seeing Masai men buying new spear points and shoes (hand-forged) from a small Indian duka (shop) ! I am judging the items from their whole appearance when assigning a date range, but could be wrong of course... Regards. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,777
|
![]()
The 19th and early 20th century spear blade are quite distinctive. You will know one when you see it and grab it. I am of the opinion that there are possibly 3 stages in seme form. The earliest are long and thin with a good temper and forging, can be used in a fast manner. Then I think they remained long and got quite a bit heavier. Perhaps slightly clumsy forging relying more on force of weight. Then finally the size of seme we see today. which can be short sword to large knife size again I think the early versions are forged and superseded by reground machete blades. This is just my " opinion" from collecting observation and handling examples.
Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th May 2017 at 10:20 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
|
![]() Quote:
Miguel |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
|
![]() Quote:
Miguel |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
|
![]() Quote:
Your opinion of them having 3 stages in their form is interesting and plausible I think. Thanks again. Miguel |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,730
|
![]() Quote:
![]() ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,430
|
![]() Quote:
1. Early East African native spears and swords were not tempered, they were quite soft and could sometimes be bent in the hand. Smelted from local iron ore. There are old pictures of Masai lion hunts with the spears well bent. 2. The use of machete blades etc did not completely replace semes being forged from scrap iron with mid-ribs. I have seen many similar new(ish) examples like that posted by Miguel. There is no shortage of scrap metal in Kenya. Its also important to remember that Kenya in particular has been producing large numbers of these sort of objects for the tourist trade for many decades now. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|