Bone grip sword

fernando · 4th January 2005, 08:58 PM

Please help.
I will try and insert here some pictures of a sword (?) i bought in the flea market, as i can't figure out what this bizarre piece would be.
The grip is in principle made of bone and, together with the cross section ( or not ), would be a replacement, to my guess. The blade is mostly single edged, only double at tip section. It is quite long ( 33 1/2" ) and slender (7/8"), and is over 1/4" thick at its little forte. It is visible, better than in pictures, that its steel is not of regular texture, like having been hand beaten or endured some special treatment, as i guess age doesn't cause such efect.
Coments would be much wellcome.

Rick · 4th January 2005, 09:34 PM

Interesting piece .

The form and size would be about the same as a Torrero's Estoc .
The handle is not like examples seen today but variants are always possible I guess .

ingelred · 4th January 2005, 10:57 PM

Could possibly a special kind of Gaucho dagger called Caronera. As described in the article "Knives of the Gauchos" by Abel A. Domenech published in Knives'88:

"...There existed a particular and interesting type of daga, called caronerawhich had avery long blade of 30 to 35 inches, that due to its length was carried between the caronas, a leather part of the gaucho#s saddle, thus the name..."

Further in this article it is written that caroneras did not have guards to make drawing easier but there must be exeptions since I own a caronera having a guard. The blade is single edged having 29 inches of length, 1 inch of width and 1/4 inch of thickness. This caronera was made by the than famous manufacturer Broqua & Scholberg, Montevideo, Uruguay.

Greetings, Helge

tom hyle · 5th January 2005, 02:13 AM

Nice! That texture is because the blade is made of folded steel, and many years of light corrosion and/or cleaning with an acid, such as naval jelly, have "brought out" the layers. Lots of European swords of more or less this style; some-one else may pinpoint it for you. This is not likely a military sword, nor a ceremonial sword of any kind, but a personal self-defence/duelling weapon. This type of sword is often broadly referred to as a "side sword", and is known for use afoot or ahorse. My guess, and it is a guess, is that this is an 18th century sword. Nice.
BTW, I'm not advocating any actions, but just FYI it's highly likely (though by no means certain) to be a spring-tempered blade, with soft tang, and possibly soft forte.

tom hyle · 5th January 2005, 02:18 AM

I also think I see the end of a scarf weld on the first couple inches of the blade, though I am not certain. Does it appear that the tang was hammered onto the blade along a slanty line at the blade base? This is often considered an interesting and desireable feature/practice with an ancient history. Sometimes the blade isn't hardened until beyond a weld of this sort, as the crystaline change of hardening can be held to stress the weld.
Oh! By not ceremonial I didn't mean to argue against the bull-fighting, though it doesn't look like a bullfighting sword to me.....

tom hyle · 5th January 2005, 05:26 AM

And, by the way, I also think that's the original hilt; too bad it didn't have a ferule.....

fernando · 6th January 2005, 12:00 AM

Too bad it didn't have a ferule !
Thank you all for the help. Most impressed by Tom's technical aproach'es. Things now make more sense, and i re tuned my eyes accordingly. Indeed the blade's texture alters its aspect in the first couple (or two) inches. Also looking at the tang, through the grip broken part, one can see it looks iron flat, no texture. Further we can notice, looking at the spine, a certain hump in its profile in that area. It's nice to ear this piece is in principle a whole original mount and actually an ancient one ... and which was bought for a humble price, in a humble place.

fernando · 18th December 2013, 04:09 PM

There was never a final assumption of what this sword was, posted almost nine years ago. Not a military example, somehow looking atypical, with varied opinions on its and provenance.
I have now found that its hilt is not so atypical, as my local fellow collector found the one here attached, which was also acquired in a local fair.
Although this one features a different blade (Spanish ?), this one double edged, the crossguard and grip are extremely similar.
I now tend (tend) to think this type of sword has a Portuguese provenance, given that both examples were purchased 70 Kms from each other.
Perhaps now, after all this time, forum members have something (new or not new) to comment about it.
Thank you

.

M ELEY · 20th December 2013, 12:19 PM

Fernando, I remember seeing your original post on that intriguing sword. I always liked it for its simplicity and suspected that it might be Spanish Colonial. The plain crossguard that swells as it moves away from the blade base is similar to patterns found on naval dirks, of all things. Not saying its naval, just an interesting design. I guess we would designate it as a primitive smallsword? Transitional rapier? Do you still have yours?

Fernando K · 20th December 2013, 12:41 PM

Hello everyone:

As Argentina (the land of the gauchos) does not think this to be a caronera dagger: generally made with broken blades and swords and bayonets, and always, as a weapon of attack and defense, they had a guard (GAVILAN) (in S, U or a simple cruise). In this issue the hawk is very long: usually it was a simple oval.

The dagger caronera facón caronero differs from that has 2 edged his knife (facon) is sharp, contrafilo loin. The specimen having a machete TOM (FACON). Many exporting companies in Europe producing these weapons to the South American market (Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, etc..) And Kirschbaum, Broqua and Scholberg, etc..

Affectionately. Fernando K

Cerjak · 20th December 2013, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

There was never a final assumption of what this sword was, posted almost nine years ago. Not a military example, somehow looking atypical, with varied opinions on its and provenance.
I have now found that its hilt is not so atypical, as my local fellow collector found the one here attached, which was also acquired in a local fair.
Although this one features a different blade (Spanish ?), this one double edged, the crossguard and grip are extremely similar.
I now tend (tend) to think this type of sword has a Portuguese provenance, given that both examples were purchased 70 Kms from each other.
Perhaps now, after all this time, forum members have something (new or not new) to comment about it.
Thank you

.

Hi Fernando

I have found those pictures not exactly the same but something near...

Best regards

Cerjak

fernando · 20th December 2013, 09:12 PM

Thank you guys for all your comments.
No Mark, i don't have mine any longer; i've let it go to some member of this forum.
I was ready to admit such one was not Portuguese but, now that this second one appeared, chances are that both are local production, as also showing a 'standard' trend.
A defense side arm it will be, until evidence in contrary.
Fernando K, the caronera possibility is not considered any longer. The blades of these two examples look complete and quite old (XVIII century); their course must not have been other than inside Europe.

4th January 2005, 08:58 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bone grip sword Please help. I will try and insert here some pictures of a sword (?) i bought in the flea market, as i can't figure out what this bizarre piece would be. The grip is in principle made of bone and, together with the cross section ( or not ), would be a replacement, to my guess. The blade is mostly single edged, only double at tip section. It is quite long ( 33 1/2" ) and slender (7/8"), and is over 1/4" thick at its little forte. It is visible, better than in pictures, that its steel is not of regular texture, like having been hand beaten or endured some special treatment, as i guess age doesn't cause such efect. Coments would be much wellcome. Attached Images

5th January 2005, 02:13 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Nice! That texture is because the blade is made of folded steel, and many years of light corrosion and/or cleaning with an acid, such as naval jelly, have "brought out" the layers. Lots of European swords of more or less this style; some-one else may pinpoint it for you. This is not likely a military sword, nor a ceremonial sword of any kind, but a personal self-defence/duelling weapon. This type of sword is often broadly referred to as a "side sword", and is known for use afoot or ahorse. My guess, and it is a guess, is that this is an 18th century sword. Nice. BTW, I'm not advocating any actions, but just FYI it's highly likely (though by no means certain) to be a spring-tempered blade, with soft tang, and possibly soft forte. Last edited by tom hyle; 5th January 2005 at 04:31 AM.

5th January 2005, 02:18 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I also think I see the end of a scarf weld on the first couple inches of the blade, though I am not certain. Does it appear that the tang was hammered onto the blade along a slanty line at the blade base? This is often considered an interesting and desireable feature/practice with an ancient history. Sometimes the blade isn't hardened until beyond a weld of this sort, as the crystaline change of hardening can be held to stress the weld. Oh! By not ceremonial I didn't mean to argue against the bull-fighting, though it doesn't look like a bullfighting sword to me..... Last edited by tom hyle; 5th January 2005 at 02:28 AM.

18th December 2013, 04:09 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	There was never a final assumption of what this sword was, posted almost nine years ago. Not a military example, somehow looking atypical, with varied opinions on its and provenance. I have now found that its hilt is not so atypical, as my local fellow collector found the one here attached, which was also acquired in a local fair. Although this one features a different blade (Spanish ?), this one double edged, the crossguard and grip are extremely similar. I now tend (tend) to think this type of sword has a Portuguese provenance, given that both examples were purchased 70 Kms from each other. Perhaps now, after all this time, forum members have something (new or not new) to comment about it. Thank you . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 18th December 2013 at 09:08 PM.

4th January 2005, 09:34 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Interesting piece . The form and size would be about the same as a Torrero's Estoc . The handle is not like examples seen today but variants are always possible I guess .

4th January 2005, 10:57 PM	#3
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Could possibly a special kind of Gaucho dagger called Caronera. As described in the article "Knives of the Gauchos" by Abel A. Domenech published in Knives'88: "...There existed a particular and interesting type of daga, called caronerawhich had avery long blade of 30 to 35 inches, that due to its length was carried between the caronas, a leather part of the gaucho#s saddle, thus the name..." Further in this article it is written that caroneras did not have guards to make drawing easier but there must be exeptions since I own a caronera having a guard. The blade is single edged having 29 inches of length, 1 inch of width and 1/4 inch of thickness. This caronera was made by the than famous manufacturer Broqua & Scholberg, Montevideo, Uruguay. Greetings, Helge

5th January 2005, 05:26 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	And, by the way, I also think that's the original hilt; too bad it didn't have a ferule.....

6th January 2005, 12:00 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Too bad it didn't have a ferule ! Thank you all for the help. Most impressed by Tom's technical aproach'es. Things now make more sense, and i re tuned my eyes accordingly. Indeed the blade's texture alters its aspect in the first couple (or two) inches. Also looking at the tang, through the grip broken part, one can see it looks iron flat, no texture. Further we can notice, looking at the spine, a certain hump in its profile in that area. It's nice to ear this piece is in principle a whole original mount and actually an ancient one ... and which was bought for a humble price, in a humble place.

20th December 2013, 12:19 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Fernando, I remember seeing your original post on that intriguing sword. I always liked it for its simplicity and suspected that it might be Spanish Colonial. The plain crossguard that swells as it moves away from the blade base is similar to patterns found on naval dirks, of all things. Not saying its naval, just an interesting design. I guess we would designate it as a primitive smallsword? Transitional rapier? Do you still have yours?

20th December 2013, 12:41 PM	#10
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello everyone: As Argentina (the land of the gauchos) does not think this to be a caronera dagger: generally made with broken blades and swords and bayonets, and always, as a weapon of attack and defense, they had a guard (GAVILAN) (in S, U or a simple cruise). In this issue the hawk is very long: usually it was a simple oval. The dagger caronera facón caronero differs from that has 2 edged his knife (facon) is sharp, contrafilo loin. The specimen having a machete TOM (FACON). Many exporting companies in Europe producing these weapons to the South American market (Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, etc..) And Kirschbaum, Broqua and Scholberg, etc.. Affectionately. Fernando K

20th December 2013, 09:12 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you guys for all your comments. No Mark, i don't have mine any longer; i've let it go to some member of this forum. I was ready to admit such one was not Portuguese but, now that this second one appeared, chances are that both are local production, as also showing a 'standard' trend. A defense side arm it will be, until evidence in contrary. Fernando K, the caronera possibility is not considered any longer. The blades of these two examples look complete and quite old (XVIII century); their course must not have been other than inside Europe.