I Need YOUR Expertise On This One!

GlobeTrekker · 16th December 2004, 03:12 AM

What the heck kind of edged weapon am I?

I am relatively new at dealing with antique edged weapons and want to learn AS MUCH about this specific piece as possible. Please help!

I purchased sword (maybe darb?) in Bangkok, Thailand exactly one week ago. It has a well worn teak handle and scabbard. Rattan bindings on the scabbard. Small 'eyelash' halfmoon engravings on the blade. Brass (?) ring where the handle meets the blade. It also has a razor sharp blade and is kind of wavy if you look down its length. The interesting thing about this weapon is its practicality; it is by no means a show sword and meant to look pretty. To me this looking like a useful piece, one that could be used on a daily basis if needed...

I am especially interested in the age, region of origin, possible uses, crafting method of the blade, and blade engravings.

Any help would be sooo much appreciated. If you have any ideas I would love to hear them. Thanks for taking the time to look at my new piece.

-GLobetrekkER

jwpettipas · 16th December 2004, 03:20 AM

I'm new here, so I can't really be of much help. Although, I'm sure the other members of the forum will be, just reading over some of the posts, they've blown me away with their technical knowledge.

Although you said this isn't a show peice, I still think it's a really nice looking sword. Was that brass or copper I saw in the blade in that last picture there, or are my eyes deceiving me? (please excuse me if I'm way off)

Nice pictures, thanks for posting =) I hope somebody helps you out soon.

Andrew · 16th December 2004, 03:27 AM

You do, indeed, have a sword from Mainland Southeast Asia, commonly referred to as "dha" in Burmese and "darb", "daab", etc. in Thai. Others here, noteably Wilked, Mark Bowditch and RhysMichael are much more learned on the proper terminology than I.

The lathe-turned handle and polished blade are typical of the swords I've seen coming out of Thailand in recent years. In fact, I have a few very similar ones produced by the now defunct company Aranyik. The quality of this form of sword varies widely from complete tourist garbage to quite good. Your example looks to have some age to it, but I'd venture not much older than late 20th century, based on the lathe-turned handle.

The scabbard is unusual in that the terminus follows the shape of the blade. Usually, these are squared off or rounded. I think I recall somone recently posted another example of a Thai sword with this feature. Prior to this, the only sword of this type with a similar scabbard that I've seen was said to be from Cambodia.

Nice sword. Enjoy it.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 16th December 2004, 05:23 AM

I echo Andrew's comments with some additions. First, did you clean this sword up? Both the handle and blade look like they may have been and that would effect the estimation of age somewhat. The vegetal or kanok motif at the hilt is definately a Thai design almost identical to one used as an example in the "Silverware in Thailand" book I have. As Andrew says the handle is turned on a lathe which makes it 20th century and probably the later part. What intriques me is the blade has some heft and the heavy brass ferrule (is that a crack or a seam) say to me that it was meant to be used. The length would put it in the made for fighting category and not the utility blade category. The blade profile and handle are consistent with many depicted in statuary throughout Thailand. The scabbard throws me off, while I've seen a very few Thai blades with this type of scabbard , none have been on the more modern blades. As Andrew noted we believe this is more a Khmer feature but those generally have an angle at the blade hilt junction.

I have seen the modern blades currently made in Aranyik and the high-end functional ones have all had a machined steel ferrule with vestigal guard. The low-end stuff almost invariably has a thin brass ferrule with a thin brass cap nailed down around the blade as do those from Lampang. I have not seen the high-end blades from Lampang or Uttaradit though I'm told they have them. If you had said you picked this up in the northeast along the Thai/Cambodian border everything would fit but I know of no makers out that way (though my knowledge of makers in Thailand is by no means all encompassing)

You have a very nice functional Thai sword with a unique scabbard configuration that appears to be well made. Nice start

. In your email you said that you picked it up in Chatuchak market, if you don't mind and can recall which dealer did you pick it up from and what were his wares like (antiques, amulets, general merchandise...)

Welcome to the the forum!

Mark · 16th December 2004, 02:33 PM

Just looking at the scabbard, it doesn't seem to quite match the sword. The wood is obviously different, with a much wider grain and lighter color under the stain, and the bands seem to be iron rather than brass, which has been oxidized or patinated somehow. I have seen this technique on a couple modern pseudo-antiques out of China. So, the scabbard may be a later addition, and quite new (it appears to have almost no wear), which might explain the atypical tip.

I agree with origin and age of the blade. Though the blade seems of modern construction, there is still a little wear on the handle, so its not brand-new.

GlobeTrekker · 17th December 2004, 03:59 AM

Hey guys. Just wanted to thank you for the information you have provided thus far! Wanted also to answer a few questions asked in previous replies.

The scabbard; The darb fits perfectly into the scabbard (flush as could be) which makes me think that it was paired with the darb from the beginning. But could a one sword by placed into a different (unmatched) scabbard and fit that well? I guess it could if the blades are identical. Also, the grains do look different but that may have to do with the broad construction of the scabbard vs. the lathe-technique used on the handle?

I never cleaned the sword up, it is exactly like I bought it. A possiblity for the look of cleanliness might be that it has been handled to a high degree and has been worn and polished by skin oils, sweat, etc. Teak is well known for the "used and worn" look due being handled a lot. Just a possible explanation after looking at my sword with a critical eye.

Wilked; The guy I bought this from was a diamond in the rough. Yes, it was in Chatuchak market, bought from an antique dealer near the designated antique tent (Tent #1). He was located on the outer edge of the large 'island' of shops in the middle of the market. So you could see him as you circumnavigate the main circular design of the market. Carried many blades, mostly antique edged weapons along with antique Buddha images and statues. Surely I got ripped off even after serious bargaining...

Can you guys post any Aranyik swords that you possess or have come across in recent years? I have tried my darndest to find them online but can't really come across them anywhere. I would like to see the features they contain to compare them to my sword. This would be HUGE. Also, do most leave the blade 'as is' after they get a sword or do many clean it up? If cleaning is an option, what is the best thing to use?

Thanks for taking the time to help me out....

-Globetrekker-

Andrew · 17th December 2004, 04:49 AM

Here are links to Therion Arms' website sold page where you can see some examples of Aranyik's swords. They are not in business any longer, but these swords turn up on eBay with some frequency:

http://www.therionarms.com/sold/ttoy385.html

http://www.therionarms.com/sold/ttoy383.html

wilked aka Khun Deng · 17th December 2004, 07:52 AM

I do know who you are talking about. He does have a real mix of stuff. From obvious tourist stuff to reproductions made to look old, and many real antiques. He has NO knowledge of blades though, but he used to carry some of the high-end stuff from Aranyik. You probably made a great deal - just try looking at the prices at River City and you'll know what I mean.

As for cleaning -clean away, the value of this sword is in how much you prize it. Since it is not an antique you will not detract from its value. Take care of it like you would any other weapon, clean up the rust with some fine steel wool, light coat of oil and I like Old English for the wood. Brasso on the ferrule. You might want to tape off the other parts when you use the Brasso.

GlobeTrekker · 17th December 2004, 08:06 AM

That is so damn crazy you know the merchant I am talking about. What are the chances that in a 35 acre market with thousands of merchants you know the exact stand I purchased my sword from? You must be quite an enthusiast, Dan. I am glad to have made a connection with you in this forum!

Impressed,
Globe

P.S. I believe you know my contact at Chakuchat because you are correct, he has a ton of nice stuff but has NO CLUE about blades.....probably why I could talk him down to 700 baht

wilked aka Khun Deng · 17th December 2004, 08:40 AM

700 baht DAMN! I thought I was good - you stole that sword. I was in Bangkok for the last two months and spent every Sat and Sun morning searching the market for blades and talking to the dealers.

Mark · 17th December 2004, 02:36 PM

What I was thinking was that the scabbard had been made specifically for the blade, but later than the sword itself. Sometimes you get miss-matched scabbards and swords, but they do not fit the way you have described.

I have sent you a PM about some other clues to age. I am learning to be cautious in posting such things, as fakers do read the forums to pick up new tricks.

16th December 2004, 05:23 AM	#4
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Intriqueing I echo Andrew's comments with some additions. First, did you clean this sword up? Both the handle and blade look like they may have been and that would effect the estimation of age somewhat. The vegetal or kanok motif at the hilt is definately a Thai design almost identical to one used as an example in the "Silverware in Thailand" book I have. As Andrew says the handle is turned on a lathe which makes it 20th century and probably the later part. What intriques me is the blade has some heft and the heavy brass ferrule (is that a crack or a seam) say to me that it was meant to be used. The length would put it in the made for fighting category and not the utility blade category. The blade profile and handle are consistent with many depicted in statuary throughout Thailand. The scabbard throws me off, while I've seen a very few Thai blades with this type of scabbard , none have been on the more modern blades. As Andrew noted we believe this is more a Khmer feature but those generally have an angle at the blade hilt junction. I have seen the modern blades currently made in Aranyik and the high-end functional ones have all had a machined steel ferrule with vestigal guard. The low-end stuff almost invariably has a thin brass ferrule with a thin brass cap nailed down around the blade as do those from Lampang. I have not seen the high-end blades from Lampang or Uttaradit though I'm told they have them. If you had said you picked this up in the northeast along the Thai/Cambodian border everything would fit but I know of no makers out that way (though my knowledge of makers in Thailand is by no means all encompassing) You have a very nice functional Thai sword with a unique scabbard configuration that appears to be well made. Nice start . In your email you said that you picked it up in Chatuchak market, if you don't mind and can recall which dealer did you pick it up from and what were his wares like (antiques, amulets, general merchandise...) Welcome to the the forum!

17th December 2004, 03:59 AM	#6
GlobeTrekker Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 9	Reply to Replies Hey guys. Just wanted to thank you for the information you have provided thus far! Wanted also to answer a few questions asked in previous replies. The scabbard; The darb fits perfectly into the scabbard (flush as could be) which makes me think that it was paired with the darb from the beginning. But could a one sword by placed into a different (unmatched) scabbard and fit that well? I guess it could if the blades are identical. Also, the grains do look different but that may have to do with the broad construction of the scabbard vs. the lathe-technique used on the handle? I never cleaned the sword up, it is exactly like I bought it. A possiblity for the look of cleanliness might be that it has been handled to a high degree and has been worn and polished by skin oils, sweat, etc. Teak is well known for the "used and worn" look due being handled a lot. Just a possible explanation after looking at my sword with a critical eye. Wilked; The guy I bought this from was a diamond in the rough. Yes, it was in Chatuchak market, bought from an antique dealer near the designated antique tent (Tent #1). He was located on the outer edge of the large 'island' of shops in the middle of the market. So you could see him as you circumnavigate the main circular design of the market. Carried many blades, mostly antique edged weapons along with antique Buddha images and statues. Surely I got ripped off even after serious bargaining... Can you guys post any Aranyik swords that you possess or have come across in recent years? I have tried my darndest to find them online but can't really come across them anywhere. I would like to see the features they contain to compare them to my sword. This would be HUGE. Also, do most leave the blade 'as is' after they get a sword or do many clean it up? If cleaning is an option, what is the best thing to use? Thanks for taking the time to help me out.... -Globetrekker-

17th December 2004, 07:52 AM	#8
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Dealer I do know who you are talking about. He does have a real mix of stuff. From obvious tourist stuff to reproductions made to look old, and many real antiques. He has NO knowledge of blades though, but he used to carry some of the high-end stuff from Aranyik. You probably made a great deal - just try looking at the prices at River City and you'll know what I mean. As for cleaning -clean away, the value of this sword is in how much you prize it. Since it is not an antique you will not detract from its value. Take care of it like you would any other weapon, clean up the rust with some fine steel wool, light coat of oil and I like Old English for the wood. Brasso on the ferrule. You might want to tape off the other parts when you use the Brasso.

17th December 2004, 08:40 AM	#10
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Thief! 700 baht DAMN! I thought I was good - you stole that sword. I was in Bangkok for the last two months and spent every Sat and Sun morning searching the market for blades and talking to the dealers.

16th December 2004, 03:12 AM	#1
GlobeTrekker Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 9	I Need YOUR Expertise On This One! What the heck kind of edged weapon am I? I am relatively new at dealing with antique edged weapons and want to learn AS MUCH about this specific piece as possible. Please help! I purchased sword (maybe darb?) in Bangkok, Thailand exactly one week ago. It has a well worn teak handle and scabbard. Rattan bindings on the scabbard. Small 'eyelash' halfmoon engravings on the blade. Brass (?) ring where the handle meets the blade. It also has a razor sharp blade and is kind of wavy if you look down its length. The interesting thing about this weapon is its practicality; it is by no means a show sword and meant to look pretty. To me this looking like a useful piece, one that could be used on a daily basis if needed... I am especially interested in the age, region of origin, possible uses, crafting method of the blade, and blade engravings. Any help would be sooo much appreciated. If you have any ideas I would love to hear them. Thanks for taking the time to look at my new piece. -GLobetrekkER Attached Images

16th December 2004, 03:20 AM	#2
jwpettipas Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 12	I'm new here, so I can't really be of much help. Although, I'm sure the other members of the forum will be, just reading over some of the posts, they've blown me away with their technical knowledge. Although you said this isn't a show peice, I still think it's a really nice looking sword. Was that brass or copper I saw in the blade in that last picture there, or are my eyes deceiving me? (please excuse me if I'm way off) Nice pictures, thanks for posting =) I hope somebody helps you out soon.

16th December 2004, 03:27 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	You do, indeed, have a sword from Mainland Southeast Asia, commonly referred to as "dha" in Burmese and "darb", "daab", etc. in Thai. Others here, noteably Wilked, Mark Bowditch and RhysMichael are much more learned on the proper terminology than I. The lathe-turned handle and polished blade are typical of the swords I've seen coming out of Thailand in recent years. In fact, I have a few very similar ones produced by the now defunct company Aranyik. The quality of this form of sword varies widely from complete tourist garbage to quite good. Your example looks to have some age to it, but I'd venture not much older than late 20th century, based on the lathe-turned handle. The scabbard is unusual in that the terminus follows the shape of the blade. Usually, these are squared off or rounded. I think I recall somone recently posted another example of a Thai sword with this feature. Prior to this, the only sword of this type with a similar scabbard that I've seen was said to be from Cambodia. Nice sword. Enjoy it.

16th December 2004, 02:33 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Just looking at the scabbard, it doesn't seem to quite match the sword. The wood is obviously different, with a much wider grain and lighter color under the stain, and the bands seem to be iron rather than brass, which has been oxidized or patinated somehow. I have seen this technique on a couple modern pseudo-antiques out of China. So, the scabbard may be a later addition, and quite new (it appears to have almost no wear), which might explain the atypical tip. I agree with origin and age of the blade. Though the blade seems of modern construction, there is still a little wear on the handle, so its not brand-new.

17th December 2004, 04:49 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Here are links to Therion Arms' website sold page where you can see some examples of Aranyik's swords. They are not in business any longer, but these swords turn up on eBay with some frequency: http://www.therionarms.com/sold/ttoy385.html http://www.therionarms.com/sold/ttoy383.html

17th December 2004, 08:06 AM	#9
GlobeTrekker Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 9	That is so damn crazy you know the merchant I am talking about. What are the chances that in a 35 acre market with thousands of merchants you know the exact stand I purchased my sword from? You must be quite an enthusiast, Dan. I am glad to have made a connection with you in this forum! Impressed, Globe P.S. I believe you know my contact at Chakuchat because you are correct, he has a ton of nice stuff but has NO CLUE about blades.....probably why I could talk him down to 700 baht

17th December 2004, 02:36 PM	#11
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	What I was thinking was that the scabbard had been made specifically for the blade, but later than the sword itself. Sometimes you get miss-matched scabbards and swords, but they do not fit the way you have described. I have sent you a PM about some other clues to age. I am learning to be cautious in posting such things, as fakers do read the forums to pick up new tricks.