Do Phallic shaped Ukirans have any traditional background?

[milandro]

I sometimes see for sale keris ukirans shaped more or less obviously like a phallus. I always see them go very quickly which must mean that they are appreciated but is this something that has any base in a tradition or is just a gimmick ? I can't show any because what I can find are all for sale and some may be offended by the graphic nature of the images

[David]

Well, i wouldn't worry about offending anyone with one of these penis hilts. I think most of us have seen them. It's a good question regarding authenticity. I don't really know the answer for sure, but i can saw that i have never seen one that looks even vaguely antique.

[milandro]

I am glad that you think that there would be no eyes which would be offended by the vision of such thing ( while I was researching the matter on possible previous threads I did find some thread where someone took offence at something very much less graphic so I decided to err on the side of caution).

I certainly agree that all examples I have seen are certainly new but I was wondering if any connection could be found in the tradition.

After all the sexual symbology is often explained when it comes to the keris and its component parts and the lingam is no stranger to many cultures including the European.

[SidJ]

Probably common knowledge to you experts but I only recently suddenly noticed that the typical Bali kris hilts are shaped like phallus. I had never noticed this before and to be honest it shocked me a bit. I cant bring myself to hold it anymore!

[David]

Originally Posted by SidJ

Probably common knowledge to you experts but I only recently suddenly noticed that the typical Bali kris hilts are shaped like phallus. I had never noticed this before and to be honest it shocked me a bit. I cant bring myself to hold it anymore!

LOL! Do you mean Bondolan hilts. I suppose anything that is longer than it is wide can be seen as being phallic. To me the bondolan hilts simply seem to be an extension of the common Javanese planar style hilts. I suppose they can be seen as phallic as well. While we are at it, the keris blade itself can also be seen as phallic. Be careful or you may have to give up collecting keris altogether.

[Paul de Souza]

I guess the photo speaks for itself.
I bought this at auction many years ago from a grainy photo. I thought it was a man in a helmet.

[Rick]

I have this example carved from horn (how appropriate!) from Adni.
I've never seen one mounted on a wilah. I do wonder where it fits into the cultural ethos of the keris or is it a gimmick for those of us who are outside of keris culture.

[Paul de Souza]

Here is what it looks like on the wilah.
It is a comfortable grip and works very well.
Just a bit awkward grasping in the hand though.

[milandro]

that is exactly what I am talking about .

[A. G. Maisey]

This overt phallic representation would not be tolerated in any Islamic society, yet here in post #7 we see a hilt form that is suited only to a keris that would come from an Islamic society.

Is this a genuine keris hilt intended for use & wear on a keris that would be worn in an Islamic society?

I believe we all know the answer to that question.

I have seen many hilts and and carvings that have the overall appearance of keris hilts, but could never be worn on any keris in Bali.

I first encountered this type of carving during the 1970's, and it still exists today. It used to come from Lombok and was quite often seen in the tourist markets of South Bali. The carving of this type that I have seen in recent years appears to be coming from Madura. It is also possible some might now be carved in Bali, but I doubt it --- much of the tourist targeted carving sold in Bali is actually produced in Jawa, mostly in Central Jawa & in the areas around Surabaya. It is produced in areas other than Bali because the wage rates in Central Jawa and other deprived regions are far below what they are in Bali.

In my experience this openly sexual type of thing is only ever purchased by visitors to Bali, I have not yet seen this sort of thing offered for sale in Jawa.

I have seen these carvings attached to older keris that have been on offer to tourists, I have never seen any Balinese person wearing a keris with an overtly phallic hilt, & I simply cannot imagine how or where any Balinese person could wear a keris dressed in this fashion, or if any sane Balinese man might want to wear such a keris.

I have not yet seen a genuinely old example of an overtly phallic keris hilt, either Balinese or any other.

I my opinion this type of carving originated in Lombok and was produced only for the tourist market. There are many items produced for the tourist market in Bali that use precisely the same phallic form, items such as bottle openers, kitchen spoons, letter openers, keyrings & etc & etc & etc.

Having said all of that, I will now add this:- a very famous, very highly respected connoisseur of Indonesian art, who also had rather deviant sexual proclivities was famous not only for his interest in art & especially keris, but also for his impressive collection of keris related items that were extremely sexually orientated. He favoured phallic & yonic keris display stands and statues, yonic wrongkos, phallic hilts. He even had an armchair that was carved in yonic form.

However, that collection was kept under cover and nobody but the trusted few ever got to see it.

[milandro]

most if not all the samples I have seen were Balinese (or indeed Lombok) krises hilts and new, which is the reason why I asked if there were any old traditional examples.

Yesterday I went to visit the Leiden Ethnological museum and there were (although not among the krises) several examples of statues displaying phalli well in evidence (even Javanese from time prior the Islamisation ).

[Paul de Souza]

My keris was acquired in the late 90s or early 2000s before 2004. So it will be 20 years old but within the timeline Alan mentioned. I always assumed it part of and expession Buddhist-Hindu beliefs. Here in Singapore, we have lots of Thai phallus amulets. Perhaps I made a mistaken association. Come to think of it, you don't see it in local Tamil Hindu iconology, except for the Lingam. Thanks for the info.

But out of curiousity, Alan, were art collectors items old or "new" made? Items from the 70s are now past half century.

[David]

Paul, i believe that while expressions of the yoni and lingam have always been present in Hindu, and to a lesser extent, even in Islamic Indonesian keris forms, they have always been more subtle than this.

[A. G. Maisey]

Nothing subtle about Candi Sukuh David, but the thing that is different is the understanding.

In Hindu belief we have a religious association, in the Abrahamic religious belief systems we have an entirely different understanding.

Devout Muslims in Central Jawa regard Candi Sukuh as something disgraceful, they call it the "dirty" candi, I have heard friends of mine express the idea that the government should put bulldozers through it.

I had intended to place a link to images of Candi Sukuh, but it was far too long, so I suggest that a google search for "Candi Sukuh Images" might be educational.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Nothing subtle about Candi Sukuh David, but the thing that is different is the understanding.

In Hindu belief we have a religious association, in the Abrahamic religious belief systems we have an entirely different understanding.

Devout Muslims in Central Jawa regard Candi Sukuh as something disgraceful, they call it the "dirty" candi, I have heard friends of mine express the idea that the government should put bulldozers through it.

I had intended to place a link to images of Candi Sukuh, but it was far too long, so I suggest that a google search for "Candi Sukuh Images" might be educational.

Absolutely Alan, but please note that i was talking about how these concepts are displayed in KERIS symbolism specifically, not in the art presented at Candi Sukuh.

[A. G. Maisey]

Understood.

[SidJ]

Originally Posted by David

LOL! Do you mean Bondolan hilts. I suppose anything that is longer than it is wide can be seen as being phallic. To me the bondolan hilts simply seem to be an extension of the common Javanese planar style hilts. I suppose they can be seen as phallic as well. While we are at it, the keris blade itself can also be seen as phallic. Be careful or you may have to give up collecting keris altogether.

Hi David
Yes this type of hilt. The glans tip bearing the pesi and the rounded pommel forming the scrotum. Immediately apparent when the hilt is separate from blade.

[SidJ]

This one is definately a happy camper.

[David]

Well, there's no unseeing that now, is there?
Frankly i never considered this hilt from an upside down perspective.
Intentional?
Perhaps.

[SidJ]

Sorry David
That angular pic got flipped . It looks even more realistic that way. But Im glad you can see my point. I never considered this form to be phallic until one day when it suddenly dawned on me what it looked like. And now things wont be the same.

[A. G. Maisey]

Further to Sid's illuminating revelation, it might be of interest to understand that the name of this hilt type in Bali is "bebondolan".

"Bebondolan" means "like a bondol". In Balinese, the bondol is a type of bird that in English would be called the "White Headed Munia", in Javanese it would be called the "Manuk Bondol Haji".

The word "manuk" is a Javanese word for "bird" and is also recognised in Bahasa Indonesia, however, in colloquial usage in both languages it can be a euphemism for the male sexual organ.

The Balinese word for "bird" is "kedis", the word "manuk" seems not to be known in the Balinese language, but it is recognised in Bahasa Indonesia usage in Bali.

Keris terminology is full of euphemisms, we can run through the entire collection of words that are applied to various parts of the keris & a very large number of these words are euphemisms.

It seems to be possible that in attaching a phallic symbolism to the Balinese bebondolan hilt, Sid may well have revealed another such euphemism:-

bebondolan > bondol > manuk > male sexual organ.

Below is a photo of a bondol bird.

EDIT

I have been asked why I did not progress my comment to the logical conclusion. Well, I stopped where I did because I thought that the rest was obvious, and to add to what I had written was a bit like driving a panel pin with a four pound hammer.

But I've been convinced that I should bring out the one hand sledge, so, with additions:-

bebondolan > bondol > manuk > male sexual organ > lingam > Siwa (Shiva)

using this understanding, it seems clear to me that the the bebondolan hilt is in fact a symbolic representation of Siwa, this is quite fitting, because the wilah of the keris itself can be understood as a lingam, so we have Siwa providing protection against evil to the keris, and thus indirectly, through the keris to the custodian of the keris.

[SidJ]

Thanks Alan
Very clear and logical. I never noticed the phallic shape of the Bali keris hilt until I had a spare that was not attached to a blade. This made it much more apparent to me. Another observation - When assembled the blade issues from the hilt much like the male seminal energy . Perhaps this too has some symbolism in adding to the potency of the male power of the keris blade? Maybe its taking things too far but it seems there is symbolism in every element of keris so worth sharing I thought.

[Bob A]

On a far lower plane of discussion, I was struck by the use of "bird" as a euphemism for the male generative organ, insofar as it is also prevalent in English (or perhaps I should specify "American"?)

I regret the derailment; still, tangential thinking can expose unexpected connections at times.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Bob A

On a far lower plane of discussion, I was struck by the use of "bird" as a euphemism for the male generative organ, insofar as it is also prevalent in English (or perhaps I should specify "American"?)

" Bird" is the same in North Italian too...while is the South of Italy it is " fish".

If I am not mistaken there was a writer or thinker who was saying that is difficult to talk of a united country if half of it calls it Bird while the other half calls it Fish.

[A. G. Maisey]

Then we have Flying Fish --- Exocoetidae.

Maybe fish are birds & birds are fish.