Introduction with a question

Sajen · 14th January 2009, 04:07 PM

Hello gentlemen,
I am already longer a member here and follow nearly every day the discussions posted here. I am collecting since 1992 keris when I have had my first trip to Indonesia, Java. Infected with the keris-fever my collection grow up every year.
Until now I never found the time to record here something because I am to busy by my work and also bought a old house some years ago.
Please apologise my not perfect english.
Here my question:
2001 I bought on Bali two small Sumatra keris. A similar example I found in the book "The Invincible Krises 2" on page 142/3, not from the blade but from the sheath, I think that it is the same material. Mrs. Ghiringhelli write that she wasn't able to identify the kind of bone. I thought that it is whale bone but never have been sure.
I think that it is a Minangkabau keris, handle from elephant ivory in Jawa Demam style, the pommel of the sheath also. §-luk blade very fine executed. When i get the keris the blade have had very thick corrosion.
The sheat is set together from four parts and have a glossy old patination. The blade fits perfect inside the sheath and I believe that all parts original.
The keris is 31,5 cm long inside the sheat and the blade alone 20 cm without peksi.
Every comment and information are welcome. Special about the origin, sheath material and dapur.
Thank's in advance,
Detlef
[/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]

Sajen · 14th January 2009, 04:11 PM

Sorry, want to write 3-luk blade!

erikscollectables · 14th January 2009, 06:59 PM

Yes as I have heard this material is whale bone.
I have a hilt of the same material.
Hope someone with more knowledge can confirm

David · 14th January 2009, 07:49 PM

First of all, welcome Sajen.
I am not really speaking from any actual knowledge

, but it dies seem to have the right porous quality that would be right for whale bone.

Sajen · 14th January 2009, 08:01 PM

Hello Erik, thanks for your reply. I don't have to much experience with this material, I also have a handle from Bali whereof I think it's from whalebone but this one is not so heavy like this sheat so I'm a little bit confused. And I think also that Mrs. Ghiringhelli will know about this material.
Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 14th January 2009, 08:07 PM

Thank you David. Yes, the porous let me think it's from whale bone but the heaviness let me doubt about.

Sajen · 14th January 2009, 08:20 PM

Here a closeup from the tip of the sheat, maybe it help to identify the material.

Marcokeris · 14th January 2009, 10:03 PM

I'm not so shure the nice sarong comes from whale bone. From bone shure! But from whale...

The very nice hit from pics seems to me ivory.
I put here two hits (from whale bone or from elephant bone i don't know...

....maybe some expert could help me to know better.

Sajen · 14th January 2009, 10:21 PM

Hello Marcokeris, yes the hilt is from elephant ivory.
For me it's also very difficult to differentiate between bone materials.

Alam Shah · 15th January 2009, 06:42 AM

Hi Sajen,

That's a nice minangkabau keris you have there. The blade is Minangkabau, Luk 3, similar to mine (( link )). Minangkabau fretworks (greneng) is smaller and delicate looking than most.

The fittings, as you've mentioned are Minang, as well.

kai · 15th January 2009, 09:34 AM

Hello Detlef,

I'd guess that the tip of the sheath also is ivory?

An experienced seller stated deer antler for a similar Minang Kabau scabbard (and hilt). I've seen references to bones of whales and (Asian) elephant being used, too (BTW, both subject to CITES as are some deers). Of course, old water buffaloes (as default bone source in the region) aren't small animals either. Moreover, bone pieces can have quite different denseness depending on which bones and, especially, which part of it is being utilized.

There seems to be a lot of guesswork when it comes to identifying the source of materials being used for ethnographic pieces; e. g. many horn hilts referred to as rhino seem to be actually buffalo. I'm not sure wether there are forensic reference collections which would allow identifying the origin by non-destructively examining the structure of the materials encountered with antique pieces. Some, like rhino horn and elephant ivory, are more likely to be identified positively than bone though.

I think it would be great if we could try to verify the source of a wide array of materials traditionally being utilized: Modern approaches like DNA sequencing will also have the added benefit to possibly narrow down the origin to a local population rather than to a species or genus only and, thus, being much more informative on the history of an ethnographic piece. While taking the necessary (small) sample damages a piece to some extend, this can often been done where it's not readily visible. Anyone interested to join the fun by making pieces from his/her collection available for study?

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 15th January 2009, 08:18 PM

Hello Alam, thank you for your reply, I've seen your keris in a other thread before. The blade looks indeed very similar.

Hello Kai, yes the pommel from the sheat is from ivory.
I don't know how much material it will need to identify it by DNA analysis but I think it's possible to take out some substance from the inside of the warangka. But I don't know where it's feasible to get a analysis and for which amount.

kai · 16th January 2009, 01:25 AM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

I don't know how much material it will need to identify it by DNA analysis

The actual sample can be a tiny bit. However, there are other factors involved like (surface) contamination and degradation (by age and possibly exposure to chemicals).

Quote:

I think it's possible to take out some substance from the inside of the warangka.

Yes, the inside of hilts and scabbards is a very good place to take samples without compromising the looks and function of a piece..

Quote:

But I don't know where it's feasible to get a analysis and for which amount.

I'm looking into this; there are also some other analyses which could yield additional, valuable information like age and I'd like to maximize the amount of info gained from a single sampling process. Of course, price is also a factor to consider...

I hope to get this project started later this year; the first trials will be done with lesser pieces from my collection. However, it would be nice to know who considers making pieces available for planning purposes. Anyone? Please contact me via email preferably.

Regards,
Kai

kulbuntet · 16th January 2009, 11:59 PM

Hi Sajen,

welcome to forum. As i can see from your pics.. i think it may be ivory. can you post biger pic of only the hilt? i see stucture that may resemble elefant ivory structure.. crosed lines.. i doubt it is whale bone or other bone.. but im no expert.

regards Michel

David · 17th January 2009, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Hi Sajen,

welcome to forum. As i can see from your pics.. i think it may be ivory. can you post biger pic of only the hilt? i see stucture that may resemble elefant ivory structure.. crosed lines.. i doubt it is whale bone or other bone.. but im no expert.

regards Michel

Michel, it is not the hilt that is in question. I believe that is ivory too. It is the sheath that is made of some sort of bone, with ivory at the tip as a buntut.

Marcokeris · 17th January 2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Michel, it is not the hilt that is in question. I believe that is ivory too. It is the sheath that is made of some sort of bone, with ivory at the tip as a buntut.

IMO, deer horn.

Henk · 17th January 2009, 03:31 PM

Scabbard is whalebone. Ukiran and buntut are ivory.

Sajen · 17th January 2009, 03:32 PM

Hello Michel, yes the hilt is from elephant-ivory for sure. Also the buntut is from this material.

Hello Marcokeris, I be in doubt that the warangka is from deer horn. It's 11,5 cm long and where the gandar go inside 5,5 cm high. I've never seen a large deer horn like this especial when you consider the some material have to be carved away.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 17th January 2009, 03:48 PM

Hello Henk, do you have experience how heavy whalebone is? I am not, but the sheat is very heavy. Like I note in up my first guess also have been that it is whalebone. And it puzzled that Mrs. Ghiringhelli don't know about this material.
Regards,
Detlef

Rick · 17th January 2009, 05:22 PM

More on Whale bone .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=whale+bone

tunggulametung · 17th January 2009, 05:53 PM

Pak Detlef,

Can not help to confirm but there are some nice info about whale bone here: http://www.flyingturtle.org/askdrg/askdrgalapagos3.html
and interesting quote from the page below:
While whale bones are real bones, they are apparantly a little "spongier" and less stiff than most land animal bones.
One of our sources says whale bones are full of oil and very smelly while they are "drying".

For that sheath size, I think cow/buffalo bone is also possible (?), but I'm not sure either, but sure it is more readily available. I remember to hold 'tourist' keris sheath made of bone, not sure if it is made of whale bone or other material but it is bone for sure (I tend to believe cow/buffalo), similar to yours but undyed so it is lighter in color. It is heavy and smells like bone

But I don't know if we can find large enough material from cow/buffalo for the sampir.

Henk · 17th January 2009, 08:21 PM

Detlef,

I thought to recognize some of the whalebone structure on your pictures. Whalebone is not much more heavier than cow or buffalo bone. As tunggulametung wrote, the structure of whalebone is more spongier. Maybe you can make a clear picture from the inside of the wrongko. Maybe the unpolished part of the material could tell us more.
Whalebone seems to be not an unusual material for kerissheaths. I'm not familiar with your Mrs. Ghiringhelli and don't know why she doesn't know about this material.

Sajen · 17th January 2009, 08:32 PM

Hello Henk, I will try to photograph the inside from the warangka. Mrs. G. is the author from the book "The Invincible Krises 2". Look in up from this threat, in her book is a keris with similar sheat.
Regards,
Detlef

erikscollectables · 17th January 2009, 08:40 PM

I have a hilt of similair material as this sheath and it is posted above. It is clearly different from any other bone hilt I have in my collection. Both structure and coulour are quite different from the regular bone hilts I have seen so far. The person with whom I traded it mentioned it that it is whalebone. So without any in depth knowledge I still go for whalebone untill a better option comes along....

Regards, Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Pak Detlef,

Can not help to confirm but there are some nice info about whale bone here: http://www.flyingturtle.org/askdrg/askdrgalapagos3.html
and interesting quote from the page below:
While whale bones are real bones, they are apparantly a little "spongier" and less stiff than most land animal bones.
One of our sources says whale bones are full of oil and very smelly while they are "drying".

For that sheath size, I think cow/buffalo bone is also possible (?), but I'm not sure either, but sure it is more readily available. I remember to hold 'tourist' keris sheath made of bone, not sure if it is made of whale bone or other material but it is bone for sure (I tend to believe cow/buffalo), similar to yours but undyed so it is lighter in color. It is heavy and smells like bone

But I don't know if we can find large enough material from cow/buffalo for the sampir.

Sajen · 18th January 2009, 12:58 AM

Hello Henk, difficult to photograph the inside, this the best what's possible for me.

Sajen · 18th January 2009, 01:01 AM

And a third one.

Henk · 18th January 2009, 08:46 AM

But enough for me. Well done!! Whalebone!!!

brekele · 18th January 2009, 09:53 AM

I'm with Henk, Whalebone!!
Agreed!

Sajen · 18th January 2009, 01:21 PM

Hello Henk, brekele and all others, thank you. Great help.

Sajen · 18th January 2009, 01:22 PM

Brekele, nice keris you show there, is it a Sumbawa keris?

14th January 2009, 04:07 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Introduction with a question Hello gentlemen, I am already longer a member here and follow nearly every day the discussions posted here. I am collecting since 1992 keris when I have had my first trip to Indonesia, Java. Infected with the keris-fever my collection grow up every year. Until now I never found the time to record here something because I am to busy by my work and also bought a old house some years ago. Please apologise my not perfect english. Here my question: 2001 I bought on Bali two small Sumatra keris. A similar example I found in the book "The Invincible Krises 2" on page 142/3, not from the blade but from the sheath, I think that it is the same material. Mrs. Ghiringhelli write that she wasn't able to identify the kind of bone. I thought that it is whale bone but never have been sure. I think that it is a Minangkabau keris, handle from elephant ivory in Jawa Demam style, the pommel of the sheath also. §-luk blade very fine executed. When i get the keris the blade have had very thick corrosion. The sheat is set together from four parts and have a glossy old patination. The blade fits perfect inside the sheath and I believe that all parts original. The keris is 31,5 cm long inside the sheat and the blade alone 20 cm without peksi. Every comment and information are welcome. Special about the origin, sheath material and dapur. Thank's in advance, Detlef [/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG] Attached Images

14th January 2009, 06:59 PM	#3
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Yes as I have heard this material is whale bone. I have a hilt of the same material. Hope someone with more knowledge can confirm Attached Images

14th January 2009, 08:20 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Here a closeup from the tip of the sheat, maybe it help to identify the material. Attached Images

14th January 2009, 10:03 PM	#8
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I'm not so shure the nice sarong comes from whale bone. From bone shure! But from whale... The very nice hit from pics seems to me ivory. I put here two hits (from whale bone or from elephant bone i don't know... ....maybe some expert could help me to know better. Attached Images

15th January 2009, 06:42 AM	#10
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Minangkabau Luk 3 keris Hi Sajen, That's a nice minangkabau keris you have there. The blade is Minangkabau, Luk 3, similar to mine (( link )). Minangkabau fretworks (greneng) is smaller and delicate looking than most. The fittings, as you've mentioned are Minang, as well.

14th January 2009, 04:11 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Sorry, want to write 3-luk blade!

14th January 2009, 07:49 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	First of all, welcome Sajen. I am not really speaking from any actual knowledge , but it dies seem to have the right porous quality that would be right for whale bone.

14th January 2009, 08:01 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Erik, thanks for your reply. I don't have to much experience with this material, I also have a handle from Bali whereof I think it's from whalebone but this one is not so heavy like this sheat so I'm a little bit confused. And I think also that Mrs. Ghiringhelli will know about this material. Regards, Detlef

14th January 2009, 08:07 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Thank you David. Yes, the porous let me think it's from whale bone but the heaviness let me doubt about.

14th January 2009, 10:21 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Marcokeris, yes the hilt is from elephant ivory. For me it's also very difficult to differentiate between bone materials.

15th January 2009, 09:34 AM	#11
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Detlef, I'd guess that the tip of the sheath also is ivory? An experienced seller stated deer antler for a similar Minang Kabau scabbard (and hilt). I've seen references to bones of whales and (Asian) elephant being used, too (BTW, both subject to CITES as are some deers). Of course, old water buffaloes (as default bone source in the region) aren't small animals either. Moreover, bone pieces can have quite different denseness depending on which bones and, especially, which part of it is being utilized. There seems to be a lot of guesswork when it comes to identifying the source of materials being used for ethnographic pieces; e. g. many horn hilts referred to as rhino seem to be actually buffalo. I'm not sure wether there are forensic reference collections which would allow identifying the origin by non-destructively examining the structure of the materials encountered with antique pieces. Some, like rhino horn and elephant ivory, are more likely to be identified positively than bone though. I think it would be great if we could try to verify the source of a wide array of materials traditionally being utilized: Modern approaches like DNA sequencing will also have the added benefit to possibly narrow down the origin to a local population rather than to a species or genus only and, thus, being much more informative on the history of an ethnographic piece. While taking the necessary (small) sample damages a piece to some extend, this can often been done where it's not readily visible. Anyone interested to join the fun by making pieces from his/her collection available for study? Regards, Kai

15th January 2009, 08:18 PM	#12
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Alam, thank you for your reply, I've seen your keris in a other thread before. The blade looks indeed very similar. Hello Kai, yes the pommel from the sheat is from ivory. I don't know how much material it will need to identify it by DNA analysis but I think it's possible to take out some substance from the inside of the warangka. But I don't know where it's feasible to get a analysis and for which amount.

16th January 2009, 11:59 PM	#14
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Hi Sajen, welcome to forum. As i can see from your pics.. i think it may be ivory. can you post biger pic of only the hilt? i see stucture that may resemble elefant ivory structure.. crosed lines.. i doubt it is whale bone or other bone.. but im no expert. regards Michel

17th January 2009, 03:31 PM	#17
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Scabbard is whalebone. Ukiran and buntut are ivory.

17th January 2009, 03:32 PM	#18
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Michel, yes the hilt is from elephant-ivory for sure. Also the buntut is from this material. Hello Marcokeris, I be in doubt that the warangka is from deer horn. It's 11,5 cm long and where the gandar go inside 5,5 cm high. I've never seen a large deer horn like this especial when you consider the some material have to be carved away. Regards, Detlef

17th January 2009, 03:48 PM	#19
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Henk, do you have experience how heavy whalebone is? I am not, but the sheat is very heavy. Like I note in up my first guess also have been that it is whalebone. And it puzzled that Mrs. Ghiringhelli don't know about this material. Regards, Detlef

17th January 2009, 05:22 PM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	More on Whale bone . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=whale+bone

17th January 2009, 05:53 PM	#21
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Pak Detlef, Can not help to confirm but there are some nice info about whale bone here: http://www.flyingturtle.org/askdrg/askdrgalapagos3.html and interesting quote from the page below: While whale bones are real bones, they are apparantly a little "spongier" and less stiff than most land animal bones. One of our sources says whale bones are full of oil and very smelly while they are "drying". For that sheath size, I think cow/buffalo bone is also possible (?), but I'm not sure either, but sure it is more readily available. I remember to hold 'tourist' keris sheath made of bone, not sure if it is made of whale bone or other material but it is bone for sure (I tend to believe cow/buffalo), similar to yours but undyed so it is lighter in color. It is heavy and smells like bone But I don't know if we can find large enough material from cow/buffalo for the sampir.

17th January 2009, 08:21 PM	#22
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Detlef, I thought to recognize some of the whalebone structure on your pictures. Whalebone is not much more heavier than cow or buffalo bone. As tunggulametung wrote, the structure of whalebone is more spongier. Maybe you can make a clear picture from the inside of the wrongko. Maybe the unpolished part of the material could tell us more. Whalebone seems to be not an unusual material for kerissheaths. I'm not familiar with your Mrs. Ghiringhelli and don't know why she doesn't know about this material.

17th January 2009, 08:32 PM	#23
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Henk, I will try to photograph the inside from the warangka. Mrs. G. is the author from the book "The Invincible Krises 2". Look in up from this threat, in her book is a keris with similar sheat. Regards, Detlef

18th January 2009, 12:58 AM	#25
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Henk, difficult to photograph the inside, this the best what's possible for me. Attached Images

18th January 2009, 01:01 AM	#26
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	And a third one. Attached Images

18th January 2009, 08:46 AM	#27
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	But enough for me. Well done!! Whalebone!!!

18th January 2009, 09:53 AM	#28
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	I'm with Henk, Whalebone!! Agreed! Attached Images

18th January 2009, 01:21 PM	#29
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Henk, brekele and all others, thank you. Great help.

18th January 2009, 01:22 PM	#30
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Brekele, nice keris you show there, is it a Sumbawa keris?