Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 13th August 2024, 08:55 AM   #1
HughChen
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2024
Location: China
Posts: 135
Default Javanese Keris ID

Hi, all

A friend showed me two Javanese Keris. They are alleged to be from 1900s (I don't know if it's ture). Can you identify them?

Why almost every Keris always be alleged to be from 1900s?

Many old Keris seems to be white but doesn't have too much red rust. Is that a valid method to identify old keris?

Another question, it's said in the process of forging, Keris will be folded 500 times. Is that real?
Attached Images
      
HughChen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th August 2024, 07:21 PM   #2
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

Blades look legitimately old. First one could easily be 19th century. The second blade is possibly older.
That's also a very strange hilt on the second blade. I don't think it was originally intended for a keris.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th August 2024, 07:28 PM   #3
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Default

I wonder if the strange hilt might be Batak. I've seen a fair number of Batak carvings depicting figures riding upon each other.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th August 2024, 10:40 PM   #4
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
Default

The method of production used to make most keris blades does indeed produce a large number of layers of material.

Using the most simple method of production, which begins with only 2 pieces of material placed into the forge as a bundle of 2, & then forge welded, the result from that first weld is a billet with 2 layers.

That 2 layer billet is then folded & welded like this:-

2 . 4 . 8 . 16 . 32 . 64 . 128

this is a pretty common progression, at 128 layers the billet is then folded again and a piece of steel that will form the core of the blade is inserted between the two halves of the billet and another weld is taken, the result is then 128 + 128 + 1 = 257 layers.

If the steel that is now the core of the blade was folded in production before insertion into the halved billet, then the number of layers will exceed 257 by the number of layers in the steel.

If the fold & weld process that applies to the material used to enclose the steel core has proceeded past 7 welds, then the layers of material in the blade can be much higher and could run into thousands of layers very easily.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2024, 03:40 AM   #5
HughChen
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2024
Location: China
Posts: 135
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey View Post
The method of production used to make most keris blades does indeed produce a large number of layers of material.

Using the most simple method of production, which begins with only 2 pieces of material placed into the forge as a bundle of 2, & then forge welded, the result from that first weld is a billet with 2 layers.

That 2 layer billet is then folded & welded like this:-

2 . 4 . 8 . 16 . 32 . 64 . 128

this is a pretty common progression, at 128 layers the billet is then folded again and a piece of steel that will form the core of the blade is inserted between the two halves of the billet and another weld is taken, the result is then 128 + 128 + 1 = 257 layers.

If the steel that is now the core of the blade was folded in production before insertion into the halved billet, then the number of layers will exceed 257 by the number of layers in the steel.

If the fold & weld process that applies to the material used to enclose the steel core has proceeded past 7 welds, then the layers of material in the blade can be much higher and could run into thousands of layers very easily.
Think you Maisey!
HughChen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2024, 03:44 AM   #6
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
Default

Post #1.

the majority of keris that we encounter can be attributed to the 1800's, ie, 19th century, because there were more people who wore keris in the 19th century than in previous periods, thus more keris were made, & because it is closer to our own time, more have survived.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2024, 03:36 AM   #7
HughChen
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2024
Location: China
Posts: 135
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I wonder if the strange hilt might be Batak. I've seen a fair number of Batak carvings depicting figures riding upon each other.
Hi, Rick, Like this
Attached Images
 
HughChen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2024, 06:35 PM   #8
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HughChen View Post
Hi, Rick, Like this
But it's not Batak work, these hilts are common on Lombok.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2024, 06:09 AM   #9
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I wonder if the strange hilt might be Batak. I've seen a fair number of Batak carvings depicting figures riding upon each other.

The hilt is from a betel crusher from Lombok, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=betel
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2024, 08:52 AM   #10
sirek
Member
 
sirek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 169
Default

Hello HughChen, if you watch this video on youtube then you understand the process a bit. There are more videos on this channel so you can follow the whole process and then you see how much work goes into it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH2PLK4c0uw

Last edited by sirek; 14th August 2024 at 09:07 AM.
sirek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2024, 09:59 AM   #11
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
Default

That's a good video, gives a real good idea of the forge work involved in producing the billet from which a keris is made, but this part of the process, although hot & heavy work, is the easy part, and the part that many makers are happy enough to farm out to somebody else.

Sometimes they supervise the smith & the strikers, sometimes not, just give instructions and pay for the end result.

The really difficult part of making a keris is the cold work, the carving.

I've made a few keris, the longest time it took me to produce a keris blade was 49 man-days, 8 & 10 hour working days.

Of those 49 days, there were 9 days spent on forge work, three men, a smith and two strikers, working for three days.

The balance of the time was spent on carving the keris.

It could have been carved more quickly if I had used electric tools, but I used all traditional tools, not electric.

There really is a lot of work in making a keris.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2024, 12:49 PM   #12
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen View Post
The hilt is from a betel crusher from Lombok, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=betel
Yup.
That's what I had in mind Sajen.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.