Poisoned keris blade

oracle_2010 · 1st August 2017, 01:35 AM

Hello, greetings everyone!

I am new to this forum, wishing to learn more about keris.
A few months ago, I got this one keris originated from Pagaralam, South Sumatera.

When I received it, the sor soran part partially covered in rust, so I decided to soak it in coconut water to remove the rust. After a few hours, I took it out and clean it with lime juice. Then I notice something peculiar.. the lime juice that dripped from above the sor soran to the pointed tip is changed to black color, almost look like the ink from a squid.

Indeed there is noticeable difference in the blade itself, from the base of the ganja to above the sor soran, it is plain grey. But there is pattern like striped black and grey ribbon from above the sor soran to the middle of the blade length. Then from the middle to tip, it is colored almost completely black.

A keris expert told me that it is actually a poisoned blade.
Is there really such keris? If so, how dangerous is the poison and how is it made? Because opinion has been varied from wether the way iron is forged which created poisonous blade or certain poison from another source was added in the making of the blade. I would also like to get opinion about the tangguh of this keris.

Attached, I send you some picture of the keris.

Rick · 1st August 2017, 03:23 AM

Better lit pictures are needed.
I doubt it is poisoned metal; it looks more like from the tip to halfway up the blade it has been hardened.

David · 1st August 2017, 03:32 AM

Hi Oracle. Welcome to the forum.
What you are seeing on your keris has nothing to do with it being a "poison keris". It is merely the pamor pattern which is being revealed by the use of lime after you cleaned the blade with coconut water. Generally speaking, after cleaning a blade like this it would be stained with warangan (arsenic and lime) to completely reveal the pamor pattern that was forged into the blade which would should extend over the entire length of the blade. While arsenic is indeed poisonous, its intended purpose is not to "poison" the blade, but rather to raise the pamor pattern and make it visible since arsenic blackens iron while leaving the nickelous material in the pamor relative untouched and creates a contrast in the colors of the different metals. But i would seriously question the validity of any keris ahli who would claim this was some kind of special "poison keris".
Tangguh is a method of classification generally reserved for high level Javanese keris. It was never intended to be used to classify common keris like this one and certainly not keris outside of Javanese keris culture. But even if this keris could be classified according to this method it would be very difficult to nearly impossible to give a good assessment based merely upon a few internet photos. Here is some more information on the Tangguh system that you might find helpful.
http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html
That said, this appears to be a nice Sumatran keris in old, well preserved dress that would benefit from a real warangan treatment. Given that you seem to live in Jawa it should not be difficult to find someone who can do this for you at a reasonable cost. I would love to see more photos of it if you decide to follow that route.

kronckew · 1st August 2017, 12:49 PM

i've seen a video of a Filipino blacksmith 'poisoning' a blade with dead venomous spider mash. he then heated the blade red hot and hardened/quenched and tempered it. i'm fairly sure no viable poison, if there ever was any, remained. purely symbolic/magical at that point.

as noted, the keris is treated with an strong arsenic mix to make the patterning stand out, but very little remains that could harm anyone more than being stabbed with it. do not drink the blackened water or lick the blade tho

David · 1st August 2017, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i've seen a video of a Filipino blacksmith 'poisoning' a blade with dead venomous spider mash. he then heated the blade red hot and hardened/quenched and tempered it. i'm fairly sure no viable poison, if there ever was any, remained. purely symbolic/magical at that point.

I have encountered legends of poison keris blades from time to time, but like many such stories there never seems to be anything substantial behind them to back them up.
What happens in the Philippines bears no reference to Sumatran keris blades. Certainly there are numerous cultures around the world who do indeed employ poisons on their weapons either for warfare or hunting. AFAIK it is not a legitimate part of any keris bearing cultures. The stories may have arisen from some misapprehension of the purpose and use of arsenic in staining blades.
As for our Filipino smith, i would agree that after that heating and quenching process no viable poison would remain on that blade anyway.

oracle_2010 · 1st August 2017, 03:55 PM

Thank you so much for the explanation, it's really giving me more knowledge.

By the way, if you see the photo of the keris, the middle to the tip ("the blackened part") have more porous texture compared to the ganja to the middle part of the blade. And also I havent tried it's reaction upon exposure to blood. Maybe it's worth the try.. 🤔

kai · 1st August 2017, 10:19 PM

Hello, welcome to the forum!

Quote:

A few months ago, I got this one keris originated from Pagaralam, South Sumatera.

Did you obtain this keris from Pagar Alam or was its origin inferred from stylistic features?

I'm with the others, that partial hardening of the blade seems to be responsible for your observations; the pamor is continuing to the base (if somewhat less visible).

It is quite possible that remnants of a former warangan treatment got activated during your cleaning and increased the staining. While it is certainly possible that the pamor could be enhanced further by fresh warangan, I'd be very careful to instruct Javanese mranggi to not overdo the etch (i. e. cleaning and staining for a very short time only); even if agreed upon, there is always the chance that the blade may end up looking heavily corroded like many keris Jawa...

Warangan was most certainly utilized in southern Sumatra (probably by the close interaction of the Palembang Sultanate with keraton Jawa; also the Sundanese were influential in Lampung). I'm less sure what the current preference of local collectors is though.

I agree with the others: The minute amounts of arsenic left on any blade are not poisonous. Actually, quite a bit is needed for acute poisoning. However, sublethal doses also can have deleterious effects on health and probably contribute to cancer. Thus, it is certainly germane to avoid unnecessary exposure. BTW, quite a few wells for drinking water in the region have elevated levels of arsenic...

If keris blades ever got treated with poison, it would have to be something else and much stronger (given the iconic nature this may be rather unlikely for keris Jawa though). Most accounts seem to refer to hidden weapons with strong poison or weapons of war (most likely spears) that got prepared by letting them accumulate rust (certainly not helping healing with additional chances of tetanus infection) and additional germs from carcasses may speed things up, too.

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 1st August 2017, 10:46 PM

Also, the rougher the surface of the blade is the more contaminants it will introduce into the wound.

kai · 2nd August 2017, 01:49 AM

Quote:

And also I havent tried it's reaction upon exposure to blood. Maybe it's worth the try..

What do you expect to prove/verify by this?

I'd avoid blood - it's not easy to completely clean/remove and quite corrosive!

Regards,
Kai

Jean · 2nd August 2017, 09:53 AM

I attach the pic of a similar kris, the blade was cleaned and lightly treated with warangan in Solo, it has no apparent pamor pattern so the color is dark grey.
Regards

oracle_2010 · 2nd August 2017, 04:24 PM

I thought that it may affect the clotting time of blood. Maybe simple blood clotting test could be done.. and clean it with lime juice afterwards? To check if the blackened part of the blade may really affect the color and clotting time of blood. But I'm not sure whether it could be completely cleaned from the blade or not, that's why I'm still hesitating.

By the way, the kris is obtained in Pagaralam, South Sumatra. Not from other province

Rick · 2nd August 2017, 07:50 PM

Clotting time has more to do with the platelet count of the person being stabbed than the keris.
Having said that the larger the wound the more bleeding that will take place.

I think we're wandering a bit from the purpose of this forum to off-topic territory here.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd August 2017, 12:04 AM

I agree with the previous comments posted to this thread.

About ten years ago, an Australian lady named Georgia Harvey researched the the matter of residual arsenic on keris blades. Her paper can be downloaded from here:-

https://aiccm.org.au/aiccm-publicati...-103-june-2007

go to the download of the journal, the paper begins on P.19, it is able to be copied.

Further on poisoned blades. I think it was Gardner who first floated the poisoned keris idea in western literature, and he seemed to be of like mind to Rick:- rough edges, dirty blade, residual specks of dirty iron in the wound = poison, if the initial strike doesn't kill you, the tetanus will.

However, at least in Jawa in times past, attempts were made to make keris blades poisonous. I was told this by a couple of reliable personal informants in Solo, and I have also read about it in at least two publications. Regrettably I cannot remember where I read about it, but I do recall that the process involved preparation of a mixture of snake venom and entrails and then soaking the keris in this for a period of time.

Poisoned keris blades? Yes, but not from arsenic.

1st August 2017, 01:35 AM	#1
oracle_2010 Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 6	Poisoned keris blade Hello, greetings everyone! I am new to this forum, wishing to learn more about keris. A few months ago, I got this one keris originated from Pagaralam, South Sumatera. When I received it, the sor soran part partially covered in rust, so I decided to soak it in coconut water to remove the rust. After a few hours, I took it out and clean it with lime juice. Then I notice something peculiar.. the lime juice that dripped from above the sor soran to the pointed tip is changed to black color, almost look like the ink from a squid. Indeed there is noticeable difference in the blade itself, from the base of the ganja to above the sor soran, it is plain grey. But there is pattern like striped black and grey ribbon from above the sor soran to the middle of the blade length. Then from the middle to tip, it is colored almost completely black. A keris expert told me that it is actually a poisoned blade. Is there really such keris? If so, how dangerous is the poison and how is it made? Because opinion has been varied from wether the way iron is forged which created poisonous blade or certain poison from another source was added in the making of the blade. I would also like to get opinion about the tangguh of this keris. Attached, I send you some picture of the keris. Attached Images

2nd August 2017, 09:53 AM	#10
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I attach the pic of a similar kris, the blade was cleaned and lightly treated with warangan in Solo, it has no apparent pamor pattern so the color is dark grey. Regards Attached Images

1st August 2017, 03:23 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Better lit pictures are needed. I doubt it is poisoned metal; it looks more like from the tip to halfway up the blade it has been hardened.

1st August 2017, 03:32 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Hi Oracle. Welcome to the forum. What you are seeing on your keris has nothing to do with it being a "poison keris". It is merely the pamor pattern which is being revealed by the use of lime after you cleaned the blade with coconut water. Generally speaking, after cleaning a blade like this it would be stained with warangan (arsenic and lime) to completely reveal the pamor pattern that was forged into the blade which would should extend over the entire length of the blade. While arsenic is indeed poisonous, its intended purpose is not to "poison" the blade, but rather to raise the pamor pattern and make it visible since arsenic blackens iron while leaving the nickelous material in the pamor relative untouched and creates a contrast in the colors of the different metals. But i would seriously question the validity of any keris ahli who would claim this was some kind of special "poison keris". Tangguh is a method of classification generally reserved for high level Javanese keris. It was never intended to be used to classify common keris like this one and certainly not keris outside of Javanese keris culture. But even if this keris could be classified according to this method it would be very difficult to nearly impossible to give a good assessment based merely upon a few internet photos. Here is some more information on the Tangguh system that you might find helpful. http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html That said, this appears to be a nice Sumatran keris in old, well preserved dress that would benefit from a real warangan treatment. Given that you seem to live in Jawa it should not be difficult to find someone who can do this for you at a reasonable cost. I would love to see more photos of it if you decide to follow that route.

1st August 2017, 12:49 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	i've seen a video of a Filipino blacksmith 'poisoning' a blade with dead venomous spider mash. he then heated the blade red hot and hardened/quenched and tempered it. i'm fairly sure no viable poison, if there ever was any, remained. purely symbolic/magical at that point. as noted, the keris is treated with an strong arsenic mix to make the patterning stand out, but very little remains that could harm anyone more than being stabbed with it. do not drink the blackened water or lick the blade tho

1st August 2017, 03:55 PM	#6
oracle_2010 Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 6	Thank you so much for the explanation, it's really giving me more knowledge. By the way, if you see the photo of the keris, the middle to the tip ("the blackened part") have more porous texture compared to the ganja to the middle part of the blade. And also I havent tried it's reaction upon exposure to blood. Maybe it's worth the try.. 🤔

1st August 2017, 10:46 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Also, the rougher the surface of the blade is the more contaminants it will introduce into the wound.

2nd August 2017, 04:24 PM	#11
oracle_2010 Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 6	I thought that it may affect the clotting time of blood. Maybe simple blood clotting test could be done.. and clean it with lime juice afterwards? To check if the blackened part of the blade may really affect the color and clotting time of blood. But I'm not sure whether it could be completely cleaned from the blade or not, that's why I'm still hesitating. By the way, the kris is obtained in Pagaralam, South Sumatra. Not from other province

2nd August 2017, 07:50 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Clotting time has more to do with the platelet count of the person being stabbed than the keris. Having said that the larger the wound the more bleeding that will take place. I think we're wandering a bit from the purpose of this forum to off-topic territory here.

3rd August 2017, 12:04 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I agree with the previous comments posted to this thread. About ten years ago, an Australian lady named Georgia Harvey researched the the matter of residual arsenic on keris blades. Her paper can be downloaded from here:- https://aiccm.org.au/aiccm-publicati...-103-june-2007 go to the download of the journal, the paper begins on P.19, it is able to be copied. Further on poisoned blades. I think it was Gardner who first floated the poisoned keris idea in western literature, and he seemed to be of like mind to Rick:- rough edges, dirty blade, residual specks of dirty iron in the wound = poison, if the initial strike doesn't kill you, the tetanus will. However, at least in Jawa in times past, attempts were made to make keris blades poisonous. I was told this by a couple of reliable personal informants in Solo, and I have also read about it in at least two publications. Regrettably I cannot remember where I read about it, but I do recall that the process involved preparation of a mixture of snake venom and entrails and then soaking the keris in this for a period of time. Poisoned keris blades? Yes, but not from arsenic.