Middle-Eastern Dagger?

tonil · 5th September 2013, 03:32 PM

Hi,

I'm Tom from England and I have had an interest in old military equipment for a while. With that being the case friends are always giving me bits and pieces for my collection. Recently a friend gave me a dagger and it is difficult to find details about it or even find something similar online.

I was wondering if there is anybody that could help me with some information about it? I have read some of the posts of this forum and people seem very knowledgable. What i'm really looking to find out is:

*What region is it from?

*How old is might be?

*It has a wooden scabbard, is the metal silver?

*The blade does not have a ridge on it, it is flat but looks as if it's been well sharpened. Maybe the ridge has been sharpened off?

*I have no idea of what the handle is made of but it does not look/feel like wood?

Also do you think there are some silver pieces missing from the handle as it looks like have broken off.

Many Thanks for your help in advance,

Tom

VANDOO · 5th September 2013, 06:33 PM

WELCOME TO THE FORUMS TOM. WE WILL NEED PICTURES AND MEASURMENTS OF THE DAGGER TO BE ABLE TO MAKE CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY PSYCIC MEMBERS BUT I COULD BE WRONG.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th September 2013, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

WELCOME TO THE FORUMS TOM. WE WILL NEED PICTURES AND MEASURMENTS OF THE DAGGER TO BE ABLE TO MAKE CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY PSYCIC MEMBERS BUT I COULD BE WRONG.

Salaams Vandoo...~ come on wheres your sense of adventure?

Its obviously an Omani Khanjar with a Bull horn hilt, from Nizwa dated about 1900 with a lot of bits missing (in fact it's totally missing !) Welcome to the Forum Tom.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

trenchwarfare · 5th September 2013, 10:50 PM

Welcome aboard tonil. And the answer is...

kronckew · 6th September 2013, 07:38 AM

please pardon the attempts at humour by some. it's part of the initiation for 1st time posters. taking the mick is a time honour british tradition, passed on to other nations. (p.s. - adding a location to your user profile is also useful)

you might want to refer to This FAQ

as i am an american, i shall be completely serious however.

i am psychic (or is that psychotic?), i forget what my psychiatrist defined it as. anyway, the condition has to do with a love of sharp pointy things.

i have a vision.

it is definitely an old pre-2014 thingamabob. is a specialised form of a thingy, also sometimes called a wotsit, but more properly a watchamacallit. if it has a doohicky attached to the base of the rabbernacker with a silver moebius nut, it will be worth a lot of money (we do NOT discuss numerical amounts here in public), humongous comes to mind tho. the silver wooden scabbard is likely made from silverwood, a rare tree that excretes a sap made out of raw .999 (with birmingham proof marks) silver amalgam that hardens into decorative patterns. the decorations vary in quality and quantity depending on the age of the silverwood tree. sometimes also used on grips, it has a tendency to fall off in coin shaped patches, exposing the underlying wood. the patches are used as currency by the locals. usually to buy edible moebius nuts which are slightly addictive.

dimensions, weights, colour photos of the unsheathed item and scabbard all will help in further evaluation, closeups of markings also are helpful.

do not confuse the moebius nut with the more common knife nut.

moebius nut (left), followed by a knife nut(right):
: (tfel) tun suibeom yb dewollof (thgir) tun efink eb lliw taht israf/cibara ni ro

tonil · 7th September 2013, 01:07 PM

Apologies for the lack of photos in my first post I didn't see the specifications for photos so I was trying to add them in a resolution that is not supported.

Fingers crossed with this second attempt will be more successful...

Tim Simmons · 7th September 2013, 05:37 PM

Looks to me like an Iraqi Marsh Arab dagger. A nice older one. I do not think the scabbard metal is silver.

kahnjar1 · 7th September 2013, 09:28 PM

Not a Marsh Dagger IMHO. The top of the hilt is all wrong for that. Looks more like a Kurdish dagger with worn shoulders. The scabbard etc could well be silver. The easy way to check, is to see if the metal is magnetic. If it is not, then it is likely silver of some undetermined quality.
Stu

drac2k · 7th September 2013, 11:38 PM

Or brass with a silver wash ?

kahnjar1 · 8th September 2013, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Or brass with a silver wash ?

Yes could be.........

Henk · 8th September 2013, 12:18 PM

Yes i'm with Khanjar. Kurdish dagger. I love it.

tonil · 8th September 2013, 02:35 PM

thank you all for the info so far, i have just tried the magnet test and its not magnetic so it maybe silver ?. i have some measurements if this would help, they are 9 cm blade, overall measurement from tip of blade to end of handle is about 35cm. does anyone have any idea of the age. it looks old and worn, but i have no idea [being a real novice at this] i have looks at 100s of photos and have not been able to come up with a dagger that looks the same as this. would i be right in thinking that each dagger is different and there are no two the same ?. thanks again tom

kahnjar1 · 8th September 2013, 07:03 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...kurdish+dagger
Check this post from earlier on the Forum. There are pics here of Kurdish daggers. You will see what I mean about the possible (and likely)wear on the hilt.
Stu

tonil · 8th September 2013, 07:55 PM

hi stu
yes this is the nearest example of the hilt that i have seen, so it looks like a kurdish dagger then. thank you for that info. would you have any idea of the age, even what century it might be. tom

VANDOO · 9th September 2013, 03:12 AM

ONE THING FOR SURE IS THIS DAGGER IS NOT NEW OFF THE STORE SHELF.

IT HAS BEEN CARRIED AND USED SOMETIMES ROUGHLY FOR MANY YEARS BY A TRIBESMAN. IT KIND OF LOOKS LIKE THE POMMEL MAY HAVE BEEN USED MORE THAN ONCE TO TRY AND DRIVE A NAIL. A GOOD OLD USED DAGGER WITH STORIES TO TELL

BRASS IS NOT MAGNETIC AND IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR SCABBARDS TO BE PLATED OR WASHED WITH SILVER FOR LOOKS. IF YOU SEE A BRASS COLOR SHOWING THRU THEN THAT IS LIKELY WHAT THE SCABBARD IS MADE OF. THE DECORATIVE FITTINGS COULD BE THE SAME BUT MAY BE SILVER.

tonil · 9th September 2013, 09:03 AM

thank you vandoo for the info, i did clean the scabbard and decorative pieces when i was given this dagger,it was that colour silver goes when it gets dirty. i cannot see a brass colour showing through, but the tip of the scabbard is a brass colour. would you have any idea of the age, as you say it does look like it has been used and worn. many thanks tom

Richard G · 9th September 2013, 03:37 PM

Here, if it works, is a photograph of a Kurd taken by Wilfred Thesiger in 1950.
Regards
Richard

VANDOO · 9th September 2013, 06:23 PM

JUDGEING FROM THE PICTURES I WOULD GUESS A HUNDERED YEARS OR MORE IS NOT OUT OF THE QUESTION. BEARING IN MIND 100 YEARS AGO IS NOT VERY LONG OVER 100 YEARS AGO MY GRANDPARENTS WHO I KNEW INTO MY EARLY 20'S CAME OUT TO OKLAHOMA FOR THE LAND RUSH IN A HORSE AND WAGON FROM KANSAS. IN MANY PLACES IN THE WORLD PEOPLE STILL LIVE THE SAME AS THEY DID HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO AND LITTLE HAS CHANGED LOCALLY. THEY MAY ONLY HAVE ONE DAGGER IN A LIFETIME AND PASS IT DOWN THRU THE FAMILY UNTIL IT WEARS OUT.

Sajen · 9th September 2013, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...kurdish+dagger
Check this post from earlier on the Forum. There are pics here of Kurdish daggers. You will see what I mean about the possible (and likely)wear on the hilt.
Stu

Hello Stu,

all shown Kurdish daggers have a blade with middle rib while Tom's dagger hasn't this feature.

But frankly said I know nothing about Kurdish daggers.

Regards,

Detlef

tonil · 9th September 2013, 07:09 PM

hi stu and detlef,
thank you detlef that was my next question,why is it the blade is flat on this dagger. the only one that looks as if it might be flat on the post from kahnjar 1 is the one on the far left. the middle rib could not have been sharpened off somehow could it many thanks tom

kahnjar1 · 9th September 2013, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Stu,

all shown Kurdish daggers have a blade with middle rib while Tom's dagger hasn't this feature.

But frankly said I know nothing about Kurdish daggers.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,
I agree but then this one has a lot of wear on the hilt so it could follow that the blade has also been worn down over time, or could have been replaced.
Stu

A.alnakkas · 9th September 2013, 09:24 PM

they come with flat blades (have seen one with a flat wootz blade once) and multifullered ones too. So nothing out of the ordinary.

Sajen · 9th September 2013, 11:01 PM

Thank you both for clarification!

Regards,

Detlef

tonil · 9th September 2013, 11:13 PM

thank you , a alnakkas,
for confirming about the flat blade, i was beginning to think the dagger was a misfit, but looking at where the end of the blade fits into the hilt it does not seem to be tampered with.
sorry to ask so many questions but could anyone tell me about the hilt, maybe what its made of. many thanks tom

5th September 2013, 03:32 PM	#1
tonil Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7	Middle-Eastern Dagger? Hi, I'm Tom from England and I have had an interest in old military equipment for a while. With that being the case friends are always giving me bits and pieces for my collection. Recently a friend gave me a dagger and it is difficult to find details about it or even find something similar online. I was wondering if there is anybody that could help me with some information about it? I have read some of the posts of this forum and people seem very knowledgable. What i'm really looking to find out is: What region is it from? How old is might be? It has a wooden scabbard, is the metal silver? The blade does not have a ridge on it, it is flat but looks as if it's been well sharpened. Maybe the ridge has been sharpened off? *I have no idea of what the handle is made of but it does not look/feel like wood? Also do you think there are some silver pieces missing from the handle as it looks like have broken off. Many Thanks for your help in advance, Tom

5th September 2013, 10:50 PM	#4
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Welcome aboard tonil. And the answer is... Attached Images Last edited by trenchwarfare; 5th September 2013 at 11:19 PM.

6th September 2013, 07:38 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,187	please pardon the attempts at humour by some. it's part of the initiation for 1st time posters. taking the mick is a time honour british tradition, passed on to other nations. (p.s. - adding a location to your user profile is also useful) you might want to refer to This FAQ as i am an american, i shall be completely serious however. i am psychic (or is that psychotic?), i forget what my psychiatrist defined it as. anyway, the condition has to do with a love of sharp pointy things. i have a vision. it is definitely an old pre-2014 thingamabob. is a specialised form of a thingy, also sometimes called a wotsit, but more properly a watchamacallit. if it has a doohicky attached to the base of the rabbernacker with a silver moebius nut, it will be worth a lot of money (we do NOT discuss numerical amounts here in public), humongous comes to mind tho. the silver wooden scabbard is likely made from silverwood, a rare tree that excretes a sap made out of raw .999 (with birmingham proof marks) silver amalgam that hardens into decorative patterns. the decorations vary in quality and quantity depending on the age of the silverwood tree. sometimes also used on grips, it has a tendency to fall off in coin shaped patches, exposing the underlying wood. the patches are used as currency by the locals. usually to buy edible moebius nuts which are slightly addictive. dimensions, weights, colour photos of the unsheathed item and scabbard all will help in further evaluation, closeups of markings also are helpful. do not confuse the moebius nut with the more common knife nut. moebius nut (left), followed by a knife nut(right): : (tfel) tun suibeom yb dewollof (thgir) tun efink eb lliw taht israf/cibara ni ro Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 6th September 2013 at 08:38 AM.

7th September 2013, 01:07 PM	#6
tonil Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7	Apologies for the lack of photos in my first post I didn't see the specifications for photos so I was trying to add them in a resolution that is not supported. Fingers crossed with this second attempt will be more successful... Attached Images

9th September 2013, 03:37 PM	#17
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	Here, if it works, is a photograph of a Kurd taken by Wilfred Thesiger in 1950. Regards Richard Attached Images

5th September 2013, 06:33 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUMS TOM. WE WILL NEED PICTURES AND MEASURMENTS OF THE DAGGER TO BE ABLE TO MAKE CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY PSYCIC MEMBERS BUT I COULD BE WRONG.

7th September 2013, 05:37 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks to me like an Iraqi Marsh Arab dagger. A nice older one. I do not think the scabbard metal is silver.

7th September 2013, 09:28 PM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Not a Marsh Dagger IMHO. The top of the hilt is all wrong for that. Looks more like a Kurdish dagger with worn shoulders. The scabbard etc could well be silver. The easy way to check, is to see if the metal is magnetic. If it is not, then it is likely silver of some undetermined quality. Stu

7th September 2013, 11:38 PM	#9
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,234	Or brass with a silver wash ?

8th September 2013, 12:18 PM	#11
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Yes i'm with Khanjar. Kurdish dagger. I love it.

8th September 2013, 02:35 PM	#12
tonil Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7	thank you all for the info so far, i have just tried the magnet test and its not magnetic so it maybe silver ?. i have some measurements if this would help, they are 9 cm blade, overall measurement from tip of blade to end of handle is about 35cm. does anyone have any idea of the age. it looks old and worn, but i have no idea [being a real novice at this] i have looks at 100s of photos and have not been able to come up with a dagger that looks the same as this. would i be right in thinking that each dagger is different and there are no two the same ?. thanks again tom

8th September 2013, 07:03 PM	#13
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...kurdish+dagger Check this post from earlier on the Forum. There are pics here of Kurdish daggers. You will see what I mean about the possible (and likely)wear on the hilt. Stu

8th September 2013, 07:55 PM	#14
tonil Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7	hi stu yes this is the nearest example of the hilt that i have seen, so it looks like a kurdish dagger then. thank you for that info. would you have any idea of the age, even what century it might be. tom

9th September 2013, 03:12 AM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ONE THING FOR SURE IS THIS DAGGER IS NOT NEW OFF THE STORE SHELF. IT HAS BEEN CARRIED AND USED SOMETIMES ROUGHLY FOR MANY YEARS BY A TRIBESMAN. IT KIND OF LOOKS LIKE THE POMMEL MAY HAVE BEEN USED MORE THAN ONCE TO TRY AND DRIVE A NAIL. A GOOD OLD USED DAGGER WITH STORIES TO TELL BRASS IS NOT MAGNETIC AND IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR SCABBARDS TO BE PLATED OR WASHED WITH SILVER FOR LOOKS. IF YOU SEE A BRASS COLOR SHOWING THRU THEN THAT IS LIKELY WHAT THE SCABBARD IS MADE OF. THE DECORATIVE FITTINGS COULD BE THE SAME BUT MAY BE SILVER.

9th September 2013, 09:03 AM	#16
tonil Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7	thank you vandoo for the info, i did clean the scabbard and decorative pieces when i was given this dagger,it was that colour silver goes when it gets dirty. i cannot see a brass colour showing through, but the tip of the scabbard is a brass colour. would you have any idea of the age, as you say it does look like it has been used and worn. many thanks tom

9th September 2013, 06:23 PM	#18
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	JUDGEING FROM THE PICTURES I WOULD GUESS A HUNDERED YEARS OR MORE IS NOT OUT OF THE QUESTION. BEARING IN MIND 100 YEARS AGO IS NOT VERY LONG OVER 100 YEARS AGO MY GRANDPARENTS WHO I KNEW INTO MY EARLY 20'S CAME OUT TO OKLAHOMA FOR THE LAND RUSH IN A HORSE AND WAGON FROM KANSAS. IN MANY PLACES IN THE WORLD PEOPLE STILL LIVE THE SAME AS THEY DID HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO AND LITTLE HAS CHANGED LOCALLY. THEY MAY ONLY HAVE ONE DAGGER IN A LIFETIME AND PASS IT DOWN THRU THE FAMILY UNTIL IT WEARS OUT.

9th September 2013, 07:09 PM	#20
tonil Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7	hi stu and detlef, thank you detlef that was my next question,why is it the blade is flat on this dagger. the only one that looks as if it might be flat on the post from kahnjar 1 is the one on the far left. the middle rib could not have been sharpened off somehow could it many thanks tom

9th September 2013, 09:24 PM	#22
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	they come with flat blades (have seen one with a flat wootz blade once) and multifullered ones too. So nothing out of the ordinary.

9th September 2013, 11:01 PM	#23
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	Thank you both for clarification! Regards, Detlef

9th September 2013, 11:13 PM	#24
tonil Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7	thank you , a alnakkas, for confirming about the flat blade, i was beginning to think the dagger was a misfit, but looking at where the end of the blade fits into the hilt it does not seem to be tampered with. sorry to ask so many questions but could anyone tell me about the hilt, maybe what its made of. many thanks tom