Mid 18th Century Portuguese Rapier ?

Cerjak · 12th November 2017, 08:36 PM

Mid 18th Century Portuguese Rapier ?

O.L. 120 cm ; blade L. 105 cm unfortunately no one mark on the blade
Any comment on it would be welcome.

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2017, 05:51 AM

Fernando is the best versed in describing these rapiers. Interesting that there is no mark on the blade.

fernando · 13th November 2017, 05:57 PM

Bonjour, Jean-Luc
All i can say wihout risking being contradicted is that this is a very nice sword.
Portuguese ... i don't know. Spanish ... maybe

. This frequent doubt is the reason why experts, certainly the wiser ones, like to call them all Iberian, unless some evident detail allows them to be more specific. Swords, like cannons, appear to have a higher value when mentioned by sellers to be Portuguese. I take it for me that this is due, not to quality factors but, statistic ones. Portugal being a smaller country and having had its armament capacities shrunk during history for reasons known by historians, makes antique weapons be more rare, thus more valuable.
Your beautiful example has all the ingredients of a sail guard sword;i have a problem in mentioning the so popular "rapier" term, until i know the with of the blades; at least that will 'partly' legitimize the rapier attribution in its non peaceful conception.
The Portuguese call this type "guarda de vela", the Spaniards "guarda de barquilla"; one means sail, the other a derivation of boat, so both appointing to the same.
A certain author cites the different reasons for their appearance, one being the reflex of our passion for the sea, which makes them typicaly Portuguese (?) and the other the transition from the heavy complex hilts from the 1600's to a phase of more 'allégé' swords, both military and civilan. You see them with plenty variations; those with more agressive blades, those with hilts well worked up and those well refined with gold plated hilts for the wealthy officers. Concerning the blade, i would recall an intersting note; Portuguese did not forge blades, at least in massive production terms. In the several cases we find inscriptions in them, those are more patriotic quotations (certainly localy engraved) than actual smiths marks; so you could say that a certain sword blade is Portuguese because it belonged to a Portuguese but not that it is Portuguese made.
I have a sail guard sword from the XVII century, that i assume is Portuguese only due to the context in which it was acquired and the blade, as so often happens, is a Solingen product, forged by PEDRO (PETER) TESCHEN.
I am sorry for being so boring; don't fall asleep when you read all the above wanderings... which are not expertly guarantee; be carefull

.

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Cerjak · 13th November 2017, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Bonjour, Jean-Luc
All i can say wihout risking being contradicted is that this is a very nice sword.
Portuguese ... i don't know. Spanish ... maybe

. This frequent doubt is the reason why experts, certainly the wiser ones, like to call them all Iberian, unless some evident detail allows them to be more specific. Swords, like cannons, appear to have a higher value when mentioned by sellers to be Portuguese. I take it for me that this is due, not to quality factors but, statistic ones. Portugal being a smaller country and having had its armament capacities shrunk during history for reasons known by historians, makes antique weapons be more rare, thus more valuable.
Your beautiful example has all the ingredients of a sail guard sword;i have a problem in mentioning the so popular "rapier" term, until i know the with of the blades; at least that will 'partly' legitimize the rapier attribution in its non peaceful conception.
The Portuguese call this type "guarda de vela", the Spaniards "guarda de barquilla"; one means sail, the other a derivation of boat, so both appointing to the same.
A certain author cites the different reasons for their appearance, one being the reflex of our passion for the sea, which makes them typicaly Portuguese (?) and the other the transition from the heavy complex hilts from the 1600's to a phase of more 'allégé' swords, both military and civilan. You see them with plenty variations; those with more agressive blades, those with hilts well worked up and those well refined with gold plated hilts for the wealthy officers. Concerning the blade, i would recall an intersting note; Portuguese did not forge blades, at least in massive production terms. In the several cases we find inscriptions in them, those are more patriotic quotations (certainly localy engraved) than actual smiths marks; so you could say that a certain sword blade is Portuguese because it belonged to a Portuguese but not that it is Portuguese made.
I have a sail guard sword from the XVII century, that i assume is Portuguese only due to the context in which it was acquired and the blade, as so often happens, is a Solingen product, forged by PEDRO (PETER) TESCHEN.
I am sorry for being so boring; don't fall asleep when you read all the above wanderings... which are not expertly guarantee; be carefull

.

.

Thank you Fernando ,I was waiting for your comment and also more information about this type of sword.
Do you know similar exemplar ?
Do you confirm the period circa 1730-1750 ?

Best
Jean-Luc

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2017, 07:11 PM

Very well written assessment Fernando, and far from 'boring'. It is actually intriguing and especially the note on the styling of these interesting guards, which I presume comes from Mr. Daehnhardt. I always appreciated his willingness to step far outside the 'box' in making these most subjective observations.
I had personally never thought of the 'sail guard' possibly designed in recognition of the Portuguese maritime affinity and reputation as well as the transitional element between military and civilian and rapier to 'arming swords'.

Too many arms scholars discount these kinds of possibilities as being fanciful or ill founded, and do not recognize the artistic nuances often imbued in hilt elements. Also that often there were unclear lines between military and the gentry and nobility in the civilian sector.

Again, Jean-Luc, a fine example.

fernando · 13th November 2017, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It is actually intriguing and especially the note on the styling of these interesting guards, which I presume comes from Mr. Daehnhardt...

Wrong conclusion

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

...Do you know similar exemplar ?
Do you confirm the period circa 1730-1750 ? ...

No, the ones i have seen are within a different type of look, which give me no clue to judge on yours, as my residual knowledge is mainly supported by comparisons.
But i can show you three that belonged in the collection of Eduardo Nobre; two supposedly Portuguese from the XVII century with hilts and blades of distinct shape, and a third one for an officer, dated circa 1777-1790, which we may assume is in fact Portuguese, once having originally a blade of protocol dimensions, was (reportedly) remounted with a larger blade of a cup hilted sword with the patriotic inscription VIVA DO. MARIA RAINHA DE PORTUGAL.

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12th November 2017, 08:36 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Mid 18th Century Portuguese Rapier ? Mid 18th Century Portuguese Rapier ? O.L. 120 cm ; blade L. 105 cm unfortunately no one mark on the blade Any comment on it would be welcome. Attached Images

13th November 2017, 05:57 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bonjour, Jean-Luc All i can say wihout risking being contradicted is that this is a very nice sword. Portuguese ... i don't know. Spanish ... maybe . This frequent doubt is the reason why experts, certainly the wiser ones, like to call them all Iberian, unless some evident detail allows them to be more specific. Swords, like cannons, appear to have a higher value when mentioned by sellers to be Portuguese. I take it for me that this is due, not to quality factors but, statistic ones. Portugal being a smaller country and having had its armament capacities shrunk during history for reasons known by historians, makes antique weapons be more rare, thus more valuable. Your beautiful example has all the ingredients of a sail guard sword;i have a problem in mentioning the so popular "rapier" term, until i know the with of the blades; at least that will 'partly' legitimize the rapier attribution in its non peaceful conception. The Portuguese call this type "guarda de vela", the Spaniards "guarda de barquilla"; one means sail, the other a derivation of boat, so both appointing to the same. A certain author cites the different reasons for their appearance, one being the reflex of our passion for the sea, which makes them typicaly Portuguese (?) and the other the transition from the heavy complex hilts from the 1600's to a phase of more 'allégé' swords, both military and civilan. You see them with plenty variations; those with more agressive blades, those with hilts well worked up and those well refined with gold plated hilts for the wealthy officers. Concerning the blade, i would recall an intersting note; Portuguese did not forge blades, at least in massive production terms. In the several cases we find inscriptions in them, those are more patriotic quotations (certainly localy engraved) than actual smiths marks; so you could say that a certain sword blade is Portuguese because it belonged to a Portuguese but not that it is Portuguese made. I have a sail guard sword from the XVII century, that i assume is Portuguese only due to the context in which it was acquired and the blade, as so often happens, is a Solingen product, forged by PEDRO (PETER) TESCHEN. I am sorry for being so boring; don't fall asleep when you read all the above wanderings... which are not expertly guarantee; be carefull . . Attached Images

13th November 2017, 05:51 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Fernando is the best versed in describing these rapiers. Interesting that there is no mark on the blade.

13th November 2017, 07:11 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Very well written assessment Fernando, and far from 'boring'. It is actually intriguing and especially the note on the styling of these interesting guards, which I presume comes from Mr. Daehnhardt. I always appreciated his willingness to step far outside the 'box' in making these most subjective observations. I had personally never thought of the 'sail guard' possibly designed in recognition of the Portuguese maritime affinity and reputation as well as the transitional element between military and civilian and rapier to 'arming swords'. Too many arms scholars discount these kinds of possibilities as being fanciful or ill founded, and do not recognize the artistic nuances often imbued in hilt elements. Also that often there were unclear lines between military and the gentry and nobility in the civilian sector. Again, Jean-Luc, a fine example.