Archaic proto-, boy's- or miniature souvenir-kris?

[VVV]

I have just finished etching this strange kris.
It looks very old and a nice twist core showed up along the blade.
But there is not a separate ganja and its size is inbetween a Javanese and a Balinese keris.
This is the smallest Moro kris I have seen (so far).
It's 52 cm (20 1/2") in scabbard and the blade is 39,5 cm (15 1/2").

What do you think it is?

Michael

[Battara]

Actually, VVV, this is about right for an old pre-1800s Moro kris like this. They were smaller then and got larger as time went on. Not unusual at all, and I knew that it would have a twistcore. It probably does have a separable ganga, but it will take magnification to see it, and it may be in a straight line, making it harder to see (or just hard to see).

I wanted this piece, but did not have the funds this time. IT is one of the best examples of this type and you are fortunate to have the scabbard with it. Congratulations! (grumble, grumble, envy, envy ..... ).

[kai]

Hello Michael,

Congrats, that's a beauty!

It looks very old and a nice twist core showed up along the blade.

Seems like I won my bet.

But there is not a separate ganja

Wow, are you sure? 10x magnifying lens?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Michael,

This is the smallest Moro kris I have seen (so far).
It's 52 cm (20 1/2") in scabbard and the blade is 39,5 cm (15 1/2").

The wear seems to be consistent with a really old blade.

How long is the gripping length - isn't that too long for a (Moro) boy's fist?

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

Originally Posted by kai

How long is the gripping length - isn't that too long for a (Moro) boy's fist?

Kai, you make some good points. I agree that this is not a boy's kris and that the hilt is too long for that.

[VVV]

Thanks for your comments!

The gripping area is only 7,5 cm, slightly less than a ukiran keris (see comparison picture).
On the ganja there is none (checked with a 8x).
But I have recieved off-forum info that this, ganja iras, could be a sign
of a really archaic keris/kris.

Michael

[kino]

Very nice. Congrats.

[David]

Michael, that is just plain sweet! A nice find.

[Flavio]

Wonderful piece Michael, I'd like to have one of this

[VVV]

Thanks for all comments.

Any additional ideas on what it is?
Jose, have you seen other kris of this, very small, size?

Michael

[Rick]

An 18 1/4" blade, close .
If yours is a Ganga Iras it would be the first archaic example I have ever seen .

[Bill]

Nice, Congrats. Smallest I've seen/heard was 17.5" but not surprised to see smaller. Not having a separate ganga is a surprise. The file work on the guard appears superior to most of this type. Perhaps it was enhanced later in life. Hard to tell from the pics, but it does appear that the "curves" have some wear. That would be consistent with my suspicions that these were a secondary weapon to finish & remove heads. For at least with the Bugis an ivory hilt was reserved as a special honor for bravery in battle.

[David]

I would have to see much closer pics before agreeing there is not a separate gonjo. Maybe even hold it to be sure.
I owned my very first Moro kris for many years before i discovered the separation line. On a blade as finely made as this one it can sometimes be hard to tell.
I think an ivory hilt would denote rank regardless of point of origin. However, I still have yet to see any Bugis weapon that would lead me to believe that these so-called archaic kris are Bugis in origin. They don't look like any provenanced Bugis keris i have ever seen. I will continue to see these as Moro until i see some substanial prove to the contrary. You can say it and say it Bill, but that don't necessarily make it so.
Also a blade with this depth of curves seems an unlikely choice for head removal. Now a mandau is a logical blade form for taking heads. Straight, flat on one side....chop!...head comes right off. I just don't see the basis for this suspicion.

[Bill]

I guess most swords would remove heads. Some better then others. The facts are that in the neighborhood this sword came from ritualistic or definitive headhunting was the norm. Certainly the head axe in Luzon had this purpose, but also hands & feet were sometimes removed. Pictures of some of these victims show quite a few wounds. So assuming by the time the head was removed, the fight was already over. The Padsumbalin Panabus seems to have been perfected for the task. While we can only speculate if the head axe & panabus developed as a tool first (likely) they both functioned for head removal. The barung would certainly do the task. So, the warriors took the heads with what they had. One first hand, account on the head removal comes from Captain David Woodard with the Bugis. He briefly describes a battle with 200 warriors on each side. Each side removes their wounded with the victors "quickly" removing the heads of 8 of the enemy & retrieving their own dead. His previous accounts describe the warfare as primarily blowguns & spears, but he notes the men carried keris & small curved swords (which one of his own men was hacked to death with). So with 200 warriors ready to shoot a poison dart or lob a spear at you, I would think you went to remove those heads as quickly as you could while you held the ground. What did they use David, you tell me? The keris, blowgun, spear or the small curvy sword. He doesn't mention them carrying the Mandau. I only use the Bugis as I can find no details of a Moro account, except that they removed the heads after the battle. I think that one problem you have for this area is that you think of it in post European boundaries instead of a very highly interactive area.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill

I think that one problem you have for this area is that you think of it in post European boundaries instead of a very highly interactive area.

No Bill, really i don't, not at all. The problem i am having is that you are consistently presenting this thesis of yours without anything substantial to back it up with.
Of course these cultures all interacted with each other in varying degrees. Still they maintained much of their own cultural identities. The keris is a weapon of great diversity because of it's interpretation by these various cultures. But when i look at the Bugis interpretation of the keris i see nothing like Michael's "archaic" kris. And to my knowledge, though i could be wrong, these "archaic" kris are generally collected in Moro areas, not Bugis.
I have to admit, i have yet to read all of Capt. Woodward's account of his journey's, though i do intent to as it looks very interesting. It is available for an on-line read and download however.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...MxY1YP_0-_nspA
I believe i have located his telling of the battle between the Parlow and the Dungally were 200 were on each side and 8 heads were taken, as you have mentioned. (Chapter 8, pg 36-37). There is no mention in that account of blowguns or any edged weapons for that matter (though i am sure they were present). Woodward does mention a musket which the Rajah insisted he carry and a swivel gun as well. It is only mentioned that 8 heads were taken, not how. Perhaps the small curved sword mentioned earlier in his book was the ticket afterall (btw, a curved sword and a curvy sword imply two different things to me. Which was it?). I doubt this curved sword was our "archaic kris" though. Since it bares such a strong resemblence to it's smaller keris cousin i would think that if Woodward's "curved sword" was our "archaic" keris was he would more likely have discribed it as just a larger crees.
BTW, i may have misinterpreted, but Woodward also mentions that spears were never thrown, but kept in hand.
"They never suffer their spears to go out of their hands, but strike their objects with great nicety."
So the warriors probably were not in danger of lobbed ones.
Oh, and i never meant to imply that the Bugis ever carried mandau. I was merely trying to point out that a weapon from this region that was really designed for taking off head has a much more logical design for the job than these "archaic" keris.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by VVV

Jose, have you seen other kris of this, very small, size?

This exact size, no, but this type of size yes. Yours is probably the earliest and smallest of the Moro kris I have seen.

[kai]

Hello Michael,

The gripping area is only 7,5 cm

That's not much; however, it's within the range of mature Southeast Asians - just remeasured a non-representative sample of fully grown hands with exactly this gripping length...

On the ganja there is none (checked with a 8x).

Thanks for the confirmation! So, some grain of the steel running into the gangya area?

But I have recieved off-forum info that this, ganja iras, could be a sign of a really archaic keris/kris.

Any supporting evidence? Pics?

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Blade length 18".

Overall length 22.75"

Length of grip section of hilt 3.25"

Scabbard damaged but original.

[Battara]

I will bet that it actually does have a separable ganga, but it is so well matched and tight that it is extremly difficult to see. It has taken me 20x to see some separation lines on some of the kris I either have or have handled.

Below is a fuzzy picture (I put in extra fuzz for you ) of my Balinese keris (1800?), my early Moro kris (1790s-1800), and my silver hilted kris (1850s). Notice that Moro kris get larger as the time frame comes closer to 1900.

[Battara]

Alan,

thank you for posting your kris - rare to see original scabbards from this early era.

[VVV]

Thanks for all your comments as well as your pictures of other small Moro kris.
I have been travelling but I will have another look at the ganja tonight.
Maybe even try to take a close up for comments.
I was of course also surprised when I couldn't see a clear straight ganja.

On the comment of ganja iras it was just a comment.
Unfortunately no pictures which is a pity as this source is famous for his interesting keris/kris.

Michael

[Battara]

On my silver headed kris on the bottom of the picture you can not see a separation line - I had to look very closely with high magnification to find it.

[VVV]

Back home again.
I just gave it another try with a magnifying lens and a strong light.
There isn't any, all the way, straight ganja.
But maybe there is a well hidden separation line ending with a 45 degree (like the old but not archaic kris)?

Michael

PS Alan, have you tried to etch yours?
Mine didn't show anything at all before I gave it a try.

[A. G. Maisey]

No Michael, I have not yet felt inclined to apply an etch. I may one day, but not in the foreseeable future.

[Battara]

VVV - don't be surprised if the line is straight or les than 45 degrees - this was also common for kris of this era and age.

[Bill]

The guard would start at the base of the "flame". Take a look at where the base of the flame would meet the guard. On both of the swords I have, the base, as it is about to hit the guard starts to flair back out to meet the outside of the guard but it is very clear they are separate. It would be near impossible to file a perfect 90 degrees. One of your pics seem to show a separation line under the elephants head. One of my kris is a straight line. The other is straight almost to the end (1/4") & has a perfect curve. That same one has no visible line, on one side where the flame mets the guard & clearly part the stirrup shows wear where the user gripped the hilt & had his thumb on the flame & stirrup. I would guess these guys put in a lot of practice hours & time cleaning from the tropical rust.

[VVV]

Thanks for your comments and hints.
I have cleaned the area a bit better and as you can see on the first of the attached pictures on one side the ganja seems to have a 45 degree separation line at the end.

Michael

[David]

I knew it ahd to be there somewhere. Actually Michael, i can also see the line in the second photo though not as well. It is amazing that the panday could make such a tight fit, especially with a 45 degree turn like that. I have a very similar hidden line on one of mine, though it is a much later variety of kris.

[kai]

Hello Michael,

Good job!

From the separation line as well as the extensive greneng I get the suspicion that this blade could be at least as likely from the 19th century (following Cato's dating) as earlier. All typical archaic pieces (that also seem to exhibit the wear to be reasonably supposed to be pre-19th century) seem to have very rudimentary greneng (cp. Alan's example) - are there early examples with extensive greneng that I missed?

Regards,
Kai

[tunggulametung]

Michael, beautiful kris!

Seeing the pictures of your first post (2nd & 4th pict) with all that 'sogokan' work, I believe personally from the beginning that it has saperate ganya. Everybody here seems to has the same impression with that pictures.

Anyway, the smaller pommel might be the answer to the length of gripping area. That measure plus the small pommel support will fit well to my asian hands. I'll be delighted to keep the kris if that does not fit to your hands