Quality of edged weapons (101)?

[driftwould]

Hi all,

I've been having a really hard time finding information about how to tell what level of quality a given bladed weapon (specifically, ethnographic daggers/swords) is. Forgive me if I've missed some well publicized post on this blog, or something obvious on the wider 'net, but the only things I come up with out there are Spyderco folding knives and so on. As for going to a country, visiting its smiths and/or knife/dagger salesmen and knowing enough to identify a well forged ethnographic blade vs. a low quality tourist rip off, I'm coming up blank. I've run into this problem in the Philippines, Taiwan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan just to name a few. I'm not totally naive... but I just can't find anyone with this kind of knowledge who's willing to pass it on to me.

To give it some focus, I've been collecting Uighur, Tajik and Uzbek Pichoks and will be adding Taiwanese aboriginal blades to my collection over the next few years. The focus of my collection is newly made pieces in traditional styles which could actually be used if I wanted to.

Think back to when you knew little/nothing about this stuff. How did all of you gain your seemingly encyclopedic knowledge?

Hopefully someone out there can help me out!

[Shakethetrees]

DW,

It's something that you build on over time.

1. Learn how to differentiate between hand filing/stoning and power grinding/polishing.

2. Hot work is also a key to spotting differences in age. Are there telltale signs of welding techniques that only were developed in the 19th or 20th centuries, and were these "modern" tools available in that time, at that place? Understand what type of brazing and welding is appropriate for the location and period.

3. Materials have changed over time as well. Iron and steel underwent terrific changes during the mid 19th century in the West. Learn to spot traditional wrought iron, pattern welded steel, wootz steel, etc. from modern mild steel made by the Bessemer process. The forums here have a lot of posts discussing old traditional steels in blades and lightly etching them to bring out the pattern. Study the before and after photos.

4. The presence of aluminum is another tell. This's metal did not exist in metallic form until about the middle of the 19th century, and was considered so rare that it was used as a precious metal for a while. It didn't really show up in remote areas of the world until after the First World War.

4a. The same rule applies to stainless steel (rostfrei). A modern development.

One book I highly recommend is by Leo Figiel, called "On Damascus Steel". While you're at it, no study is ready to begin without George Cameron Stone's masterwork, "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor". It's inexpensive, has some glaring omissions and a few mistakes, but it's the first book I pick up when something comes up that I'm unfamiliar with.

5. Back to materials, learn how to differentiate wood from horn from bone from ivory from plastic. I see a lot of mis identification even on this forum from time to time!

If you really want to get I to it distinguish one type of plastic from another, but this is something that is way down the list.

6. Learn what natural wear and tear looks like, as opposed to artificial distressing.

7. Learn what artificial applied patinas and coloration looks like. This might be one of the most important things to learn.

When collecting, know that this is a long term learning experience. You will make mistakes from time to time, (hopefully not too costly so as to discourage you from collecting). These mistakes can be looked at as tuition-the cost of an education.

One thing that could put you on the fast track here is to get a mentor who is trustworthy, not someone who is always trying to sell you something or trying to buy from you. You can sell and buy with/through this mentor, but I would do so only after establishing trust. That's where it gets tricky.

Always learn to ask the right questions, those well thought out, and not necessarily the same ones over and over again. If you tend to not ask the right questions, he will think you're not catching on, and this will chase away a potential mentor who will see is as wasting their time.

Good luck, and have a good time!

[Oliver Pinchot]

Collecting anything, from pebbles to Renaissance portraits, is a matter of experience.

If you're collecting modern blades in "traditional" styles from Central and East Asia, you're in the enviable position of being able to take notes and snap reference images with your phone as you shop. This will allow you to make some comparisons at the end of the day. Compare details such as form and embellishment. Whatever you're seeing multiples of isn't likely to be the best work available.

Before you ever set foot in a market, bazaar or suk, you should be thoroughly familiar with what these "traditional" styles are. With this in mind:

--Examine as many originals as you can, ideally in museums and private collections. If there are none available near you, buy books. There are a number of Soviet-era Russian works with English summaries that provide good treatments on Uighur, Uzbek, Turkmen and other Central Asian general ethnic arts. These often contain edged weapons, you just have to look.
--Don't credit hearsay, particularly not from a seller, most especially one you don't know.
-- If you make a purchase and later regret it based upon your continued observations: Congratulations, you've learned something. Consider the cost of the piece a payment against your tuition.

Good luck and have fun learning!

[Shakethetrees]

Oliver,

Good advice on seeing multiples. Someone is cranking them out by the boatload!

Anything a seller says should be taken with a grain of salt. His job is to sell, sell, sell.

Buy from a position of knowledge, but keep it understated. Ticking off a seller, especially if he has something that is good and it is undervalued, could cause him to pull it from the table!

[A. G. Maisey]

Everything that STT and Oliver have said is relevant to your question, however, I am unable to be as specific either of these two gentlemen.

Perhaps the very first question to answer is exactly what is meant by "quality" in any particular field.

Are you going to judge quality in accordance with the parameters used by collectors and other authorities who are outside the relevant culture/society, or are you going to judge quality in accordance with the standards used within the culture/society ?

If within the relevant culture/society, will you apply the standards of the people within that society who are recognised arbiters, or will you apply the standards of the general mass?

Then there is the problem of time:- something that is accepted as an object of high quality today, may not have been highly regarded at the time it was produced, and the opposite can also be the case.

Since you are focussed on modern interpretations of traditional weapons, perhaps you need to understand how the people within the relevant society/culture see the weapon in question in today's terms. Has the weapon developed into an art work, has the form developed into something a little different from what it used to be, or are the modern makers attempting to copy and reproduce styles from the past?

Perhaps it may be relevant to use the standards of modern custom cutlers, where you would apply the three "F's" :- fit, finish, functionality.

But if the weapon has developed into an art work, then functionality no longer applies.

I apologise for raising more questions than I have answered, but I do believe that you first need to clarify your collecting objectives, and perhaps the first question you must clarify for yourself is exactly what standards you intend to apply:- the standards within the culture /society, or the standards of collectors who are outside the culture/society.

In my own field of specialisation there can often be a very wide gap between one of the several standards that can apply in Javanese or Balinese society, and the standards that apply amongst collectors outside those societies. All these standards can be argued to be valid, but we need to be clear in our own minds about which standard it is that we apply for our own collecting.

[VANDOO]

A DEEP AND COMPLICATED QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL VARY WITH EACH INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR, I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS SO FAR. EXPERIENCE AND PERSONNEL TASTES WILL DETERMINE THE WAY WE COLLECT, SO EACH COLLECTOR WILL SET HIS OWN PARAMETERS FOR COLLECTING.
IF FOR RESALE NOW OR LATER THE PROFIT IS MOST IMPORTANT SO WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS, AUTHENTICITY AND DEMAND MUST BE OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE.
SOME OF US COLLECT ITEMS THAT ARE ATTRACTIVE OR ESPECIALLY INTERESTING TO US PERSONALLY REGARDLESS OF RESALE , PROFIT OR WORKMANSHIP BUT TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE. RESALE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN BY US AS WHEN WE PASS THEM ON IT IS BEST TO BREAK EVEN OR GET SOME PROFIT. THE COST, AUTHENTICITY AND ATTRACTIVENESS TO US PERSONALLY ARE OUR MAIN MOTIVATION.
SOME CHOOSE TO SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD AND ARE ABLE TO AVOID BUYING IN OTHER FIELDS. THEY MAY CHOOSE TO ONLY COLLECT A FEW OF THE VERY BEST QUALITY OR A RANGE OF QUALITY FROM LOW GRADE COMMON EXAMPLES TO THOSE ONLY FOR ROYALTY.

OFTEN THE MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY'S PRODUCE WHAT WE CONSIDER HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS. THEIR STEEL, GOLD, SILVER, GEMS AND INLAYS ARE TECHNICALLY SUPERIOR. BUT IN SOME SOCIETY'S THE MORE CRUDE TECHNIQUES ARE THE TRUE ONES AND WHAT WE SEEK SO THE PRIMITIVE CRAFT IS AUTHENTIC. SO COLLECTING IN THESE FIELDS REQUIRES WE LOOK FOR THE PROPER CRUDE TECHNIQUES, PATINA AND WEAR TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MODERN AND OLD. STONE TOOLS OR STEEL TOOLS OFTEN MAKES THE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY. THE PROPER MATERIALS AND DESIGNS USED ALSO PLAYS ITS PART.
WHEN DEALING WITH ITEMS MADE ONE AT A TIME BY HAND BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS AND TRIBES THAT CHANGE OVER TIME YIELDS A FIELD WHERE NO TWO ITEMS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THE FACTORY MADE ITEMS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALL MOSTLY ALIKE.
COLLECTING GOOD CONTEMPORARY MADE ITEMS MADE BY THE SOCIETY TODAY IS ANOTHER FIELD TO COLLECT IN AND HELPS SUPPORT AND PRESERVE THE NATIVE ART EVEN IF THEY ARE OFTEN CONSIDERED AS ONLY TOURIST ITEMS TODAY 100 YEARS FROM NOW WHO KNOWS?.
WE COLLECTORS ARE LIKE THE THINGS WE COLLECT, ARE ALL ONE OF A KIND AND EACH OF US FOLLOWS OUR OWN PATH AND LEARNS WHAT WE CAN FROM THE FORUM AND ELSEWHERE IN OUR OWN WAY. THE MAIN THING IS TO ENJOY, LEARN AND HAVE FUN.

[spiral]

in some way unused modern arms are more difficult to judge.

In Nepal 9 or 10 years ago old army kukri were sold for 4 times the price of a modern shiny lookalike piece, not for collector value just if it had lasted 80 or 100 years in a village you knew it was good! the locals would trust in it, The said new ones can look amazing then break , obviously due to poor steel tempering near the tang, poor steel, stress risers on poorly ground tangs etc.

If a knife or sword is to be used for real it should be tested, new or old.

The blade should be smacked at maximum impact into a thick oak {or equivalent.} plank {not the log end.} 3 or 4 times from edge, both sides & spine. {Safety gear may be needed. }

If its ok, not bent broken or grip become loose then its probably ok to use if your life depends on it.

There are further old ww2 Gurkha tests to fine tune stuff for higher finesse, but the basic smash it & see from all angles lets you know whether it a user or not.

spiral

[ariel]

Originally Posted by spiral

The blade should be smacked at maximum impact into a thick oak {or equivalent.} plank {not the log end.} 3 or 4 times from edge, both sides & spine. {Safety gear may be needed. }

spiral

A word of caution: please do not do it with even presumably valuable blades:-)

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ariel

A word of caution: please do not do it with even presumably valuable blades:-)

I agree in principal Ariel, & the poster was talking about new pieces... but I still say if you are going to use one old or new, it needs testing!

Ive known 3 blokes carry collectable & sought after kukri as side arms in at least 3 nationality's forces in the last 15 years.

They all collected kukri, had lots of them {old & new.} & took the one they trusted most into combat zones. {2 were special ops types {some US Navy Intelligence unit, Brit.SAS, & a French fighter pilot.} because they were better than the modern made ones. There life, there collections, there choice.

It is a shame if a collectable gets destroyed, I agree, but If I really needed to use one as if my life depended on it {Not that Ill get a call up.}, it would be a good one as well.

If your life may depend on it , you've got to choose the best I think...

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used.

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used.

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

That's the problem no one considers when pressing old blades into service, especially ones where the exact construction details are presumed to be a certain way.

No one would think about getting an X-ray first.

The saddest tale of woe I have ever heard is that a descendant of Jim Bowie took one of the earliest Bowie knives, possibly the first one ever, on a hunting trip.

Long story short, the pirogue tipped over and dumped them and the contents into the water. The knife was lost! Family history, arms history, American history, and a knife that eventually would have great intrinsic value was irretrievably lost.

I've always thought it best to get the best modern equipment available and put faith in it when it's going into a situation where it could be ruined or, worse yet, taken and enjoyed by an "enemy combatant"!

Think about the movie, Pulp Fiction, where an Air Force captain played by Christopher Walken returns a watch with three generations of combat service to the young son of his POW cellmate!

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, valid comments, but the khuk I'm talking about was a tool. meant to be used.

I used it.

The blade came loose.

So what?

I fixed it, and I'm still using that khuk as a camp knife/garden knife.

However, I would not recommend that a jade hilted Mughal court khanjar be used as a modern personal protection device.

Incidentally, my tool kit, that I use every time I have something to repair or make, has my father's tools from the 1920's, and my father's uncle's tools from the 1880's in it. To my mind it is no different using an old khuk to do a job, than it is to use old carpenter's and cabinet maker's tools --- or any other tools or household implements that are still functional, no matter how old they might happen to be.

Simple fact of the matter is that a lot of old stuff just works better, is more reliable, and less subject to breakage than the crap that is currently marketed. Plus you get the pleasure from using something nice. I can assure you that porridge eaten with a hallmarked English silver spoon made in 1825 tastes better than porridge eaten with a piece of Chinese stainless steel.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used. .

Interesting stuff Alan, yep not many kukris made for stabbing, a very few T spine types perhaps & one ore two other rarities. Now Bayonets on the other hand!

Which type did you use? one of the double edged ones or a 1907?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

Yep the traditional Nepalese ones are all short tanged, then if it breaks at some time its easy to repair, rivets & buttcaps make the repair job harder...

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

That's the problem no one considers when pressing old blades into service, especially ones where the exact construction details are presumed to be a certain way.

That problem is equaly true of new pieces as well STT. Perhaps even more so? {Having never been used or tested.}

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

No one would think about getting an X-ray first.

x rays tell you a bit, practical testing tells you a lot.
Sensible & serious people would use the test I mentioned, It a typical old Gurkha test for weapons but not dissimilar to test used by Wilkinson sword before proofing a sword.

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I've always thought it best to get the best modern equipment available and put faith in it when it's going into a situation where it could be ruined or, worse yet, taken and enjoyed by an "enemy combatant"!.

Faith can not be relayed on! It is Strong belief on the doctrine, hopeful or spiritual conviction rather than proof: Once again Id say test any blade you are truly going to use. Go for proof!

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Think about the movie, Pulp Fiction, where an Air Force captain played by Christopher Walken returns a watch with three generations of combat service to the young son of his POW cellmate!

Why? It was a clever & powerfull film but the clues in the title.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, valid comments, but the khuk I'm talking about was a tool. meant to be used.

I used it.

The blade came loose.

So what?

I fixed it, and I'm still using that khuk as a camp knife/garden knife.

However, I would not recommend that a jade hilted Mughal court khanjar be used as a modern personal protection device.

Incidentally, my tool kit, that I use every time I have something to repair or make, has my father's tools from the 1920's, and my father's uncle's tools from the 1880's in it. To my mind it is no different using an old khuk to do a job, than it is to use old carpenter's and cabinet maker's tools --- or any other tools or household implements that are still functional, no matter how old they might happen to be.

Simple fact of the matter is that a lot of old stuff just works better, is more reliable, and less subject to breakage than the crap that is currently marketed. Plus you get the pleasure from using something nice. I can assure you that porridge eaten with a hallmarked English silver spoon made in 1825 tastes better than porridge eaten with a piece of Chinese stainless steel.

That's It Alan, my old early 20th century planes are 10 times the quality of the modern junk, so are some of my old kukri & knives.

But your last paragraph is it! "a lot of old stuff works better."

I now use my great grandmothers best cutlery for evry meal, where the last 3 generations kept it looked away for best, {meeting prospective in-laws for the first time type of best.} I use it every day! It is wonderfull to hold, so well designed & comfortable! it makes every day a little richer.

Am I philistine? Or am I sensible?

Either way STT use whatever you want, but personally id test it! Then your prepared for it to go wrong,during testing!

If it breaks when your focusing on the job in hand at a later date, it will be both more inconvenient & more dangerous.

old or new if its up to the job, it should survive the test! If not its no good for the job!

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Sounds as if we think alike Spiral.

Talking about tools, all my father's hand saws are Disston, bought in the 1920's most of them, maybe one or two in the 1930's. These saws can be set and sharpened, and my understanding is that when they were purchased they cost one hell of a lot of money. If I look at prices on the online auction sites for these old saws, and saw sets and clamps, they still cost a lot of money. But I can buy a brand new Sandvik saw for $8, it works OK, cuts OK, but only for a very short time, then you throw it away and buy a new one, my experience is that these things simply will not sharpen or set.

In respect of kitchen stuff, cutlery, china & etc. I'm not a total barbarian. The Royal Doulton family dinner set, and my grandmother's special order Wedgewood tea set are only dragged out for the visitors. My great grandfather's Staffordshire cheese dish has never been used as long as I've had it --- +50 years now --- because we no longer buy full 12" cheese rounds, we buy a couple of hundred grams in the supermarket as we need it.

I guess you could say I use things that are meant to be used, and/or can be repaired, and try to conserve things that can be damaged or destroyed by over use.

Another modern product that just does not work is the typical hardware store axe. I need to use an axe a fair bit, big block of land, lots of mature trees. The one I use most is a 5 pound Plumb that has been ground to competition geometry and has a competition handle in it. I can cut hardwood all day with this and a brief touch up with a stone brings it back to a shaving edge.

All the other axes I use have similar quality heads, but they have not been given a competition grind. Compare this with the garbage that you can buy in the local hardware store now:- plastic handles, a grind that you can't cut butter with and that is impossible to put a lasting edge on.

Plumb, Keysteel, Kelly, never see these axes anymore.Even the old generic 4 1/2 pound Hytest that used to be everywhere and in fact if properly ground and sharpened was a pretty good axe has disappeared and in its place we find Chinese garbage.

Old tools? Use them, don't put them in a glass case and look at them.

Re my pig bayonet:- not double edge, stamped "3 22 Lithgow" on the ricasso. It saw service in WWII.

[Shakethetrees]

I always feel that using the best is best, unless you might be placing you and it in a situation where something with sentimental value is taken.

Going camping or hunting? Find a well made knife and buy it not it go to the hardware store and grab the nearest piece of a Chinese garbage.

Today we can find, with a few keystrokes, a forum discussing almost anything. If you may need to get something your life could depend on do the research. I would no more take what I know is a great quality knife from my collection and drag it through the woods/water/desert! Great knives are available, but at a cost, as we all know.

One thing I carried was a German made Hubertus switchblade given to me by my Father when he went back there in the early 1990's for a reunion. It's of a small sentimental value, I'd be sick if I lost it, but I know it's of great quality and will do the job it was made for. I do t have to give it the oak plank test to have complete faith in it. The fit and finish is obviously superior to a lot of what's out there. This only works if you truly know knives and not impresses with generally shines things. You must understand how knives are made and what it takes to develop a high degree of finish and mechanical fit.

However, I would not carry his M-3 he carried in WWII, although it is well made, can do the job it was designed for, etc. too much historic/sentimental value here.

[A. G. Maisey]

STT response:-

yep, it should always be a balanced approach, but the balance depends upon one's own point of view.

I was a member of the Australian Knife Makers Guild for many years, I made a few complete knives, but mostly I sold blades to other makers, some in the USA. The only knife I made that I use myself is my desk knife, the first piece of damascus I made. My daily users vary depending on what I'm doing, sometimes its a Boker mini 3 blade stock, sometimes its a mini Swiss Army, sometimes a pattada, sometimes Star Cross (Rodgers) 3 blade stock. All depends on what I'm doing. Seldom carry a belt knife, and what I do carry is usually as small as will do the job. But I use a belt knife quite a bit for various jobs, mostly a Martiini carbon or a Mora laminated, just don't hang them on the belt.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Sounds as if we think alike Spiral.
.

Strangely so Alan... my 7lb felling axe is an Ellwell datad 1894 it is my favourite splitting axe, sadly I need to make it another new handle. {Last one lasted 18 years. of abuse by myself & a couple of others on occasion...}Although I find 5lb is best for felling, but my 7 lb felling blade was great for splitting, theoretically although not wide like a splitting axe but so well tapered & with the weight would put a cut or split even in a crotch ,knotty or twisted burr piece, big enough to put the wedges in & start pounding with the sledge hammer. Left the modern splitting axes in the shade......

My 1 1/2lb Ellwell is probably 1920s

I only have one mint 20s Diston, but only use it for cutting fine timber in the loft, I use the throwaways in the workshop....

Early Victorian wine glasses I only use on special occasions, {Glass breaks to easily.}

Yep your Lithgow bayonet would be a 1907 pattern, made in March 1922. In good condition that's a few hundred dollars worth today!

I agree about sentimental value STT, those things are best preserved.

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, the bayonet is worth a few bucks, but you can always replace money. $300 bucks is the cost of halfway decent meal for two in a nice restaurant.

I'd sooner keep my bayonet.

7 pound is a big axe. Are you sure it is was originally ground as a felling axe? It seems more likely to be a splitting axe at that weight, which is what you now use it as.

David Foster is unquestionably the greatest axeman the world has seen. He's 6'4' tall he weighed 350pound (25 stone, 159kilos) in race condition, his hand speed was faster than Mohammed Ali. Maybe he could use a 7 pound felling axe, I couldn't and I doubt many normal sized people could. The standard work axe in Australia where virtually everything you see is hardwood, is 4.5 pound.

My 5 pound Plumb was my uncle's race axe, and he was a much bigger man than I am. Its comfortable to use underhand, but its too heavy for me to use balanced on a plank or a ladder up a tree. I cannot use it for felling at height, standing on the ground its OK, but even then it gets heavy a lot quicker than a 4.5 pounder.

The grind on an axe is extremely important for what it is used for, if you try to use an axe that is incorrectly ground for the work and timber it will be used on you'll either ruin the axe or have a memorable accident.

I don't make my axe handles, I source them from competing axemen, who import top quality American hickory. They're not cheap, but they are much better than anything you can buy in a store, or even make at home. Problem with virtually all commercial handles now is that they are made too thin.

My saws are far from mint condition. My father used them all his life, I've used them for over thirty years. They've been set and sharpened uncountable times. They hang on the workshop wall, gather a bit of rust between uses and come up clean and sharp when needed. Definitely not mint, definitely not coddled.

[spiral]

mmm interesting Alan, I wasn't suggesting you sell it, {given the nature of this thread,} just that you found it a great pig sticker, but to many its a valueable collectable.

When I was about 20, I worked in an iron foundry as a hammerman, when I turned up the owner of the foundry laughed & said I was to small, {5ft 8 & 9 stone soaking wet.} I said let me start & if I can do it give me the job if I cant you've had however many hours I last for free.

He laughed & said fine, I did that job for 9 months using a 7lb sledge many hours day. The other hammermen were rather hardy & more massive Sikhs, I had the same output as them.

I preferred the short handled,{ about 20 inch, I think} 4lb & 5lb for one handed work though.

But yes I prefer 5lb for felling! And of course the Colonial hardwoods are much harder than the English.

My Elwell is a felling axe, {I worked in Forestry for a while before going in the foundry.} Its a well known 18th & 19th century English pattern, generally used for softwoods, or notching hardwoods before saw felling, at one time it was sold as the "forest blazer".

Heres an old photo of it next to a standard Gurkha issue kukri. {11 inch blade.} The handle is wytch elm, I find it better than ash , hickory is great but slaps the hands a bit sometimes?

It was virtually unused when I found it years ago, so I guess someone else thought it to heavy to use as well! It was the most expensive axe Elwell used to make.

I must make it a new handle.... just hard to find a piece that's not kiln dried & has the right grain shape.

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

To my eye, that's a very strange looking axe. I really don't know what use it would be where I live. Actually it is pretty close in shape to the imported things they sell as block splitters, but its sure not anything like our axes here. Its a bit hard to see what sort of grind it had, and that's really what tells you what the axe was meant to do and to what.

What you say about tool weights and physical size is true to a degree.

The heaviest hammer I ever saw used was used by the old bloke who used to be Pak Pauzan's striker. This man's family followed the trade of turning big rocks into little ones:- they made blue metal by hand. He was maybe 50 odd when he started work for Pauzan, and he used an enormous hammer that weighed in excess of 20 kilos. His technique was what I'd call "pendulum" he swung the hammer between his legs like a pendulum and on the return swing he carried it up above his head and down onto the anvil, in effect he turned himself into a pivot point, he really didn't use much strength at all. Just as well, because he stood about 5 foot nothing tall and weighed maybe 55 kilos. When he finished the strike, he'd slide the hammer off of the anvil, let it swing between his legs and do the pendulum thing again. He probably struck half as fast as a normal striker would, but each strike was like a steam hammer. He had been a rock breaker from the age of 6 or 7.

When I was doing a lot of forge work I used a 10 pound and a 12 pound hammer for heavy work and a 4 pound for one hand work. The technique to use a heavy hammer easy is to position yourself so that your back hand comes down onto your hip at exactly the same time that you strike the work on the anvil, then to lift the hammer you turn your hip as you lift, which causes your whole body to lift the hammer, not just your arms. This technique cuts effort by more than half.

If you use an axe handle that is the standard deers foot pattern that they sell in hardware stores, hickory will most certainly slap your hands, so will anything else, but if you use a handle that is the same design as used on racing axes you don't get a slap from any timber. These handles are bigger all round, they have a big hand filling knob as the deers foot and they are not smoothed down, but left with the rasp marks on. Use of one of these handles cuts the effort of axe work by a lot, for one thing, the axe will always go just precisely where you want it to, something that is often difficult to do with an ordinary hardware store handle.

Elwell were never a well known or popular axe in Oz. I'm not a bush worker, but some members of my family used to be, and I live in an area that has been a big timber getting area in the past. Probably Plumb was the Rolls Royce for a work axe, and usually 4.5 pound, a big man would sometimes use a bigger axe but I'd guess that more than 90% of work axes used by the timber getters in this area from the 1920's through to the present would be 4.5 pound. Of course felling was and is mostly done with saws, cross cut up till chain saws came into general use. Kelly and Hytest were always popular, but all I ever see in the hardware stores now are imported junk, not real axes at all.

This is what proper axes look like:-

http://www.osborneaxes.com.au/

http://www.tuatahiaxes.com/index.html

[spiral]

Sure its primarily designed for high moisture content softwoods, not that many of those in Oz. in the old days! & the modern rubbish radiata pine on plantations is all done by heavy machinery Id guess? {replacing even chainsaws.}

It was the standard English pattern felling axe for 200 plus years, but yep for me its just a splitter! Ive added a photo of its other profile.

Sure using a hammer or axe two handed is a full body experience! I always smile when I see people chop wood with just there arms! It looks really hard work!

Those custom axes look great, never seen anything like them before. Id love one! But no good for my splitting firewood of course! I am sure it would damage the edge no end to misuse it such. Am unaware of the racing handle type as well. Ill look into it., sounds interesting.

spiral

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

...

The saddest tale of woe I have ever heard is that a descendant of Jim Bowie took one of the earliest Bowie knives, possibly the first one ever, on a hunting trip.

Long story short, the pirogue tipped over and dumped them and the contents into the water. The knife was lost! Family history, arms history, American history, and a knife that eventually would have great intrinsic value was irretrievably lost.

...

in 1973, travelling north in the inland passage from seattle to juneau on the USCG Cutter 'Confidence' we encountered a violent snowstorm/gale and i somehow lost my zippo lighter overboard. probably trying to light a cigarette. i smoked like a dirty chimney back then.

two years ago i got an email asking if i was the same wayne kroncke who served on the USCG cutter 'Confidence', i answered yes, of course.she then replied that her sister, walking along the beach in vancouver, canada had found a zippo lighter with my name on it a few years before, and she thought they, now computer literate, should try tracing it on the interweb. she mailed it to me and i have my 'irretrievable' lighter once more. i also stopped smoking almost 20 years ago, but the zippo still works after all that.

shows very little wear for it's years underwater and sand. lost the white, black, blue and red coloured paint in the original engraving and a bit of wear on the hand engraved side.

shows not only the endurance of a zippo, but the power of the internet. and the honesty of a few people in canada. i sent them a thankyou card with a few pounds to cover their expenses and buy them a beer.

we also frequently get iron age and earlier swords, etc. out of the thames river, in fairly remarkable condition.

maybe the bowie will turn up again. stranger things DO happen.

[spiral]

Great stuff Kronckew! what a wonderful story & great return from good people.

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

That's a great yarn Kronkew! Love it.

Thanks for the view of the grind Spiral. Looks like it never has been ground to do anything, the grind looks like how it left the factory. Its close to what you can see on just about any generic axe, works just OK for most things, but its essentially a backyard axe, not a specialist tool.

That convex grind would probably work OK on hardwoods as well as softwoods. The way an axe like this bites into timber is that middle of the cutting edge bites first, after that the convex sides of the grind (like on your axe) push the timber apart as the curved cutting edge opens the penetration wider. So after that first penetration the edge doesn't really touch the timber, the convex sides of the grind separate the wood. This sort of grind protects the edge and an axe ground like this doesn't need to be sharpened every time you use it, which makes it a good general purpose thing to throw in the back of the truck. This convex grind is what we call a "rolled edge", different to the "turned edge" that some call a rolled edge that happens when you hit a nail . I've also heard this edge called an "apple seed edge".

But if it were a specialist tool, the grind would be tuned to the type of timber to be cut, the grind may or may not be rolled in a convex profile to the point, and the face of the blade behind the grind would probably be relieved to a hollow grind, which helps to prevent the axe from binding in the cut.

The grind could be convex, or flat, or combinations and the grind that was used would be perfect for the timber to be cut. When I was a kid a lot of bush workers were still using axes as specialist tools, and my memory is that they used to have different axes for different jobs, and they would normally grind and sharpen their axes themselves.

The big difference between a specialist axe and a generic axe is that your ordinary heavy edge grind splits off the chips, the specialist tool slices off the chips, mostly on a 45 degree angle.

Same with saws:- if you used a saw, or saws, every day to earn your living, you set and sharpened those saws yourself, you didn't send them off to a saw doctor every time they got a bit blunt, you sat down after dinner and got your tools ready for tomorrow.

Seems things are a bit different now.

Here's a pic of three axes.

The top one is my 5 pound Plumb. It has been ground to an edge that will handle green hardwoods. Compare the difference between a professional handle and a hardware store handle, such as is on the other two lower axes. This axe went through a bushfire in 1954 and was heat treated again by a local blacksmith in Nowra.

The middle axe is a Keesteel, 4 ½ pound. This is a good axe and if properly ground would perform as well as the Plumb.

The bottom axe is a Kelly Dandenong pattern. This was a favourite farm axe and general purpose work axe for many years in Australia, this is a 4 pound axe. The design would never permit regrinding to make it a specialist tool, it’s a GP axe and must remain so.
During the 1950's the axe pictured here was used by a bloke working for my uncle to trim out felled trees. It got lost in the bush. Around about 1982 I was kicking around one of my uncle's old work sites in the bush, and I found it again.

[driftwould]

Wow! There have been so many responses here I haven't been able to keep up, but now that the weekend's here I can give this the time it deserves. Thanks, everyone, for your input!

OK, first, a quick response to Shakethetrees: Thanks for the list of things to work on learning, that's helpful. You also said, "Buy from a position of knowledge, but keep it understated. Ticking off a seller, especially if he has something that is good and it is undervalued, could cause him to pull it from the table!" Fortunately for me, I'm in my 9th of the last 10 years in Asia (China and Taiwan, and traveling in Central Asia, etc), so I have a pretty good bargaining skill set to draw on for this, and yes that's a very true point!

You also recommended I, "get a mentor who is trustworthy." THAT is a far more difficult task! Any thoughts on how to accomplish this? I've recently been visiting a knife shop here in Taiwan and talking to the seller there... but some of what he's said has left me wondering how much he's saying from a knowledge perspective (he clearly knows more than me), and how much is face saving about things he doesn't know (or thinking he does know)/hoping I might eventually buy something/valuing modern blade technology more than traditional handwork.... I guess one question would be how to tell if a mentor knows all he projects or thinks that he knows.

[driftwould]

Spiral, thanks for offering a lot of helpful points and advice as well. You said, "in some way unused modern arms are more difficult to judge." That, with your input on Gurkha style testing brought me to another question: Part of what I value in what I collect is that it be usable. I'll post more on that below, but presuming I want to buy a modern piece, made by a local smith somewhere like Central Asia, Taiwan or the Philippines, and I want to ensure it's genuinely usable, but it happens to be a beautiful cultural piece with beautiful, hand crafted traditional embellishments on the handle and/or blade, what would you recommend? This is actually a common scenario for me, since I place high value on both of these areas.

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Collecting anything, from pebbles to Renaissance portraits, is a matter of experience.

If you're collecting modern blades in "traditional" styles from Central and East Asia, you're in the enviable position of being able to take notes and snap reference images with your phone as you shop. This will allow you to make some comparisons at the end of the day. Compare details such as form and embellishment. Whatever you're seeing multiples of isn't likely to be the best work available.

Before you ever set foot in a market, bazaar or suk, you should be thoroughly familiar with what these "traditional" styles are. With this in mind:

--Examine as many originals as you can, ideally in museums and private collections. If there are none available near you, buy books. There are a number of Soviet-era Russian works with English summaries that provide good treatments on Uighur, Uzbek, Turkmen and other Central Asian general ethnic arts. These often contain edged weapons, you just have to look.
--Don't credit hearsay, particularly not from a seller, most especially one you don't know.
-- If you make a purchase and later regret it based upon your continued observations: Congratulations, you've learned something. Consider the cost of the piece a payment against your tuition.

Good luck and have fun learning!

Oliver, thanks for that response. The idea of building up my own photo archive- especially with the way I use modern technology- is a great one! I'll have to start compiling what I've already got and be intentional about doing this in the future.

As for examining originals, that sort of gets to the whole point of what I was originally posting about- how do I walk into a booth in a bazaar and tell an original from an "original?" I visit museums when I can, but some of these in small knife making towns in 3rd world countries are stocked by modern pieces that I've been told by the curator could be bought for a hand full of dollars. Meanwhile, here in Taiwan (to say nothing of Mainland China) there are lots of things floating around in bazaars claiming to be originals, but many are obvious fakes, and those that aren't obvious to me may still be fakes. Many of these are things from relatively recent history (the last 100 or so years) that I have a deep interest in because of their unique styles and craftsmanship, as well as their historical value, but they wouldn't necessarily be represented in museums. How can I go about figuring out which ones are the real deal?

As for the Soviet-era Russian works with English summaries, I'd love it if you could post a few specific titles (and links?)!

On a related note, I'm fortunate to have at least one REALLY good blade museum, run by a master sword maker, here in Taiwan.

Here are a couple links about him (he's been called "Taiwan's last swordmaker")

http://www.jctravel.ca/post/view/vid...st-sword-maker
http://www.humansinvent.com/#!/9247/the-story-of-taiwan%E2%80%99s-last-sword-maker/

He's since gotten an apprentice, fortunately....

And here's his website, in case you're interested:
http://www.6989595.com/

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Everything that STT and Oliver have said is relevant to your question, however, I am unable to be as specific either of these two gentlemen.

Perhaps the very first question to answer is exactly what is meant by "quality" in any particular field.

Are you going to judge quality in accordance with the parameters used by collectors and other authorities who are outside the relevant culture/society, or are you going to judge quality in accordance with the standards used within the culture/society ?

If within the relevant culture/society, will you apply the standards of the people within that society who are recognized arbiters, or will you apply the standards of the general mass?

Then there is the problem of time:- something that is accepted as an object of high quality today, may not have been highly regarded at the time it was produced, and the opposite can also be the case.

Since you are focused on modern interpretations of traditional weapons, perhaps you need to understand how the people within the relevant society/culture see the weapon in question in today's terms. Has the weapon developed into an art work, has the form developed into something a little different from what it used to be, or are the modern makers attempting to copy and reproduce styles from the past?

Perhaps it may be relevant to use the standards of modern custom cutlers, where you would apply the three "F's" :- fit, finish, functionality.

But if the weapon has developed into an art work, then functionality no longer applies.

I apologise for raising more questions than I have answered, but I do believe that you first need to clarify your collecting objectives, and perhaps the first question you must clarify for yourself is exactly what standards you intend to apply:- the standards within the culture /society, or the standards of collectors who are outside the culture/society.

In my own field of specialisation there can often be a very wide gap between one of the several standards that can apply in Javanese or Balinese society, and the standards that apply amongst collectors outside those societies. All these standards can be argued to be valid, but we need to be clear in our own minds about which standard it is that we apply for our own collecting.

It's funny that you should say just that, in just that way, just when you did- I just happen to have had a conversation about just that with a friend just the other day! ;^) Here's a distillation of what came out of it:

I asked my friend how he defines quality. This very farm-based analogy was his response: “I can give you a cow pie and tell you its quality. If you want to hang it on a wall, you'll tell me to go to ****. If you want to fertilize your garden you'll want a bag of the stuff. I would base quality on traditional made thing with A. Is it traditional. B. How well it works for intended purpose.” He added, “quality is based on what its intent is. If it’s a pretty object to be hung on a wall the quality is the aesthetic look. If its to be used its the resilience of the blade and how the handle FEELS (not looks).” Not a bad beginning, I think. That in mind, here’s what else I told him I’m looking for:

FUNCTIONALITY:
• I could, at least in theory, take the piece and, well, use it! There is a caveat though: There are plenty of examples of knives that are used in traditional cultures not for regular cutting, but for ceremonial or religious or superstitious purposes- for example as a talisman against evil or a sign of initiation. These pieces would be just fine because of their traditional value, which to me trumps their value as and edged cutting tool. After all, it’s their intended, traditional function. That goes back to my friend’s response. It also brings me to…

CULTURE, TRADITION AND HISTORY OF BOTH THE STYLE AND THE SPECIFIC PIECE IN QUESTION
• Pieces should:
o be part of, and convey, the culture they came out of, and its history.
o be made in the traditional style of a local culture (whether that be the old style or its LEGITIMATE modern continuation- see below).
• The story/history of the piece- my part of the story, the makers’ and sellers’ parts in it, and its place in the native culture and history- are key to a piece’s intrinsic value to me. Does this tradition stretch back to much earlier times? All the better! That brings me to…

PERSONAL CONNECTION:
• I place an extremely high value on going there in person to get them from the maker, at least for modern pieces. The harder it is to get to a place, and the more difficult the process, the more value I place on the piece.
o (That brings me to this problem: you need to know what the traditional, good ones are in order to pick something you can truly be proud to have gone there and gotten yourself. Hence, my original post.)
o (As a side note and good example, I have a well worn, dull, rusty old spear from the Philippines with no embellishment which I highly value. Why? Because I went there, connected with locals, went on a mini-expedition into the mountainous, rural and undeveloped heart of a backwards island on the back of a local friend’s friend’s motorcycle over hours worth of really rough two track snaking through jungle, hunted for old swords and found this by accident in the process. I have a video of my guide/motorcycle driver/interpreter/now friend interpreting from the local dialect as the previous owner stood in front of his hut and explained how it had been used in WWII against the Japanese, among other things. It was clearly not a sales pitch! The personal connection with the piece, and the man who was one in a line of owners stretching back into history, makes this a piece very close to my heart, and one of my most prized posessions.)

BEAUTY (AND UNIQUENESS)
• Pieces should:
o be beautiful pieces of art, and by that I mean refined and elegant, traditionally cultural pieces, NOT gaudy or touristy things. At the very least, it should be a good example of the traditional craftsmanship and artistry of the culture. I prize this highly!
o preferably stand out from other pieces.
o Not be mass produced or low quality pieces of workmanship (again leading back to my original post). I prize the sweat, muscle, skill and passion a truly skilled artisan has poured into a hand-made piece.

MONETARY ISSUES
• I’m not looking at these in terms of resale value. I'd rather keep them a whole lifetime, and then see them become heirlooms or something. That said, the good ones tend to be the expensive ones, and I figure I'll only be there once (or at least, once in this stage of my own story), and I can afford the money because 10 years from now I'll miss the knife more than the money.

QUALITY OVER QUANTITY:
• I will ALWAYS buy one good one over two so-so’s.

In other words, if you think like an anthropologist, art lover and a historian, and throw in a little Indian Jones, you’ll be close to understanding what I’m looking for! ;^)

As for your point about its value at the time of production vs. now, I suppose I’d make a personal call on that on a case by case basis- though I’d love more discussion on this! Your point about how people see it in today’s terms is also a good one. I should mention that, while I’ve mostly only had the opportunity to collect modern interpretations of traditional styles to date, it’s by no means my only focus! Historical pieces would be great, as would swords and not just the (mostly) daggers I’ve collected so far.

One last thing, about what you said about fit, finish and functionality, I think I’ve said plenty about my take on functionality, but could you say more about fit and finish?

Thanks again for the great response!

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A DEEP AND COMPLICATED QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL VARY WITH EACH INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR, I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS SO FAR. EXPERIENCE AND PERSONNEL TASTES WILL DETERMINE THE WAY WE COLLECT, SO EACH COLLECTOR WILL SET HIS OWN PARAMETERS FOR COLLECTING.
IF FOR RESALE NOW OR LATER THE PROFIT IS MOST IMPORTANT SO WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS, AUTHENTICITY AND DEMAND MUST BE OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE.
SOME OF US COLLECT ITEMS THAT ARE ATTRACTIVE OR ESPECIALLY INTERESTING TO US PERSONALLY REGARDLESS OF RESALE , PROFIT OR WORKMANSHIP BUT TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE. RESALE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN BY US AS WHEN WE PASS THEM ON IT IS BEST TO BREAK EVEN OR GET SOME PROFIT. THE COST, AUTHENTICITY AND ATTRACTIVENESS TO US PERSONALLY ARE OUR MAIN MOTIVATION.
SOME CHOOSE TO SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD AND ARE ABLE TO AVOID BUYING IN OTHER FIELDS. THEY MAY CHOOSE TO ONLY COLLECT A FEW OF THE VERY BEST QUALITY OR A RANGE OF QUALITY FROM LOW GRADE COMMON EXAMPLES TO THOSE ONLY FOR ROYALTY.

OFTEN THE MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY'S PRODUCE WHAT WE CONSIDER HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS. THEIR STEEL, GOLD, SILVER, GEMS AND INLAYS ARE TECHNICALLY SUPERIOR. BUT IN SOME SOCIETY'S THE MORE CRUDE TECHNIQUES ARE THE TRUE ONES AND WHAT WE SEEK SO THE PRIMITIVE CRAFT IS AUTHENTIC. SO COLLECTING IN THESE FIELDS REQUIRES WE LOOK FOR THE PROPER CRUDE TECHNIQUES, PATINA AND WEAR TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MODERN AND OLD. STONE TOOLS OR STEEL TOOLS OFTEN MAKES THE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY. THE PROPER MATERIALS AND DESIGNS USED ALSO PLAYS ITS PART.
WHEN DEALING WITH ITEMS MADE ONE AT A TIME BY HAND BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS AND TRIBES THAT CHANGE OVER TIME YIELDS A FIELD WHERE NO TWO ITEMS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THE FACTORY MADE ITEMS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALL MOSTLY ALIKE.
COLLECTING GOOD CONTEMPORARY MADE ITEMS MADE BY THE SOCIETY TODAY IS ANOTHER FIELD TO COLLECT IN AND HELPS SUPPORT AND PRESERVE THE NATIVE ART EVEN IF THEY ARE OFTEN CONSIDERED AS ONLY TOURIST ITEMS TODAY 100 YEARS FROM NOW WHO KNOWS?.
WE COLLECTORS ARE LIKE THE THINGS WE COLLECT, ARE ALL ONE OF A KIND AND EACH OF US FOLLOWS OUR OWN PATH AND LEARNS WHAT WE CAN FROM THE FORUM AND ELSEWHERE IN OUR OWN WAY. THE MAIN THING IS TO ENJOY, LEARN AND HAVE FUN.

Thanks a lot for the great response, Vandoo! Please see my response to AGM above.

[spiral]

This axe was the standard felling pattern in the UK Alan, nothing customised or special about it, It does what I ask of it though, better than modern axes sold for splitting.

In the UK we don't come across many axes that weight 7lb but are only a quarter inch thick 2 inches back from the edge. Here general purpose axes are thicker than that, {still concave of course.}Strangely in England being a 7lb Elwell it value is similar to your old bayonet! There sought after here! By both collectors & users!

I must admit the old American axes you mention & the custom Ozzie ones Ive never seen in the UK. Ill keep my eyes open for them! I guess Id have to search them out though... & any felling I do nowadays I only do with a chainsaw, so that's probably not much use to me, they look nice though & the custom handle looks usefull.

So when re.handled, Ill carry on using my 118 year old 7lb English pattern generic felling axe, {for splitting!}

Yes it does get tricky Driftwood, I have a couple of 200 year old plus rather exotic kukri that I haven't tested, but there of the reach out & touch someone with the sharpness rather than chopping weapons. But I don't intend to use them, I have others I can use.

spiral