Nepalese Pra-swords

ariel · 28th September 2007, 11:41 PM

When we think of Nepalese swords, we usually mean Kukri and Kora.
As per Rawson, the story is more comlex.
Until 1324, Nepal was ruled by Indial princes of Mithila. Then, it was conquered by the Rajputs. After that, Gurkhas took over in 1768
Kora was the national sword of the Gurkhas. Kukri , apparently, is a descendant of the ancient Kopis-like swords of Ajanta.
Here is, what I think, the original pra-Kukri. Pay attention that there is no "cho"

Battara · 29th September 2007, 05:44 PM

Ariel, I have heard of this and even seen some examples of Nepalese stuff that does not look "typical". thanks for sharing this.

Rick · 29th September 2007, 07:54 PM

How long is the back edge on this sword Ariel ?

ariel · 30th September 2007, 12:10 AM

No back edge at all. Looks like Sossun Patta, only shortish: the blade is 21.5" straight line from the bottom of the lower handle ring.

Jim McDougall · 30th September 2007, 07:02 AM

This is a most interesting example of 18th century kora, especially with the unusual variant blade form. By the latter 18th century the preferred Gorkhali weapon was the kukri, and it seems that the kora had been for the most part reserved for ceremonial or sacrificial use. While that may well be the case, it seems that many of the kora I have seen are much like this in simplicity, suggesting fighting rather than ceremonial use. Possibly the influence of the so called spear point blade of cavalry sabres is seen on this example, further emphasizing the probability of combat use, despite the lack of weighted end.

It seems generally accepted that both the kukri and the kora share thier probable ancestry from the kopis, and although the direct progression is unclear, they both seem to have existed concurrently. The heavier kukri with its dual purpose attributes both in utility and combat seems to have prevailed in favor, especially as the famed Gurkha regiments were formed in the early 19th century.

kai · 30th September 2007, 08:42 PM

Hello Jim,

Quote:

This is a most interesting example of 18th century kora, especially with the unusual variant blade form.

I beg to differ: This doesn't seem to be a kora (not even modified from a regular fighting kora blade).

AFAIK it's well established that this hilt type has been used with different blade forms as battlefield weapons. From the top of my head I remember kora blades, regular khukuri blades, recurved sword blades, as well as downcurving sword blades like the one shown above by Ariel (obviously influenced by the soussun patah and yataghan blades). From northern India, there are also the recurved khukuri blades and those "ox cutters" (usually with tulwar hilts?).

Regards,
Kai

spiral · 30th September 2007, 11:19 PM

Interesting piece Ariel,

If one goes pre.1800 thier are many unusualy bladed Nepalese weapons, kukri, kora & other strange beasts, some typicle Yataghan shaped even ,most that dont appear in western litriture & collections.

I think the origin of the kukri is still wide open myself, gaps of many centurys in most reasonings, which makes it all debatable.

I think kora were often used in Nepal later than often supposed, not just for sacrafice either. Their have been a few photo about, saddley I dont have rights to them though.

There are still armourys there with lorry loads of rusty, holed, falling apart relics them, realy sad when one sees a few were inlayed in fairly thick gold even & were other what once great pieces. Most serious market traders & of course dealers there can find you 20 or so in a few minutes to peruse.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2007, 01:49 AM

Hello Kai,
Thanks very much for answering!
You are right in that using the term kora for this weapon may be a bit arbitrary, and often specific terminology in describing ethnographic weapons can be both frustrating and misleading. The distinct double roundel hilt seen on the kora of course has been used as well on many variant weapons of the subcontinent, thank you for clarifying that point.

All best regards,
Jim

Andreas Volk · 1st October 2007, 05:42 PM

Very interesting beast ...
might I ask for a close up picture of the tip ? Just to "exclude" that we are looking at a kora with a down-grinded and then reworked and again heat treated tip.

regards

Andreas

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2007, 06:47 PM

Good point Andreas!!!

....couldnt resist!

This doesnt seem ground down, but I really cant tell, many of the guys have a better eye for those characteristics than I do for sure.

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 1st October 2007, 11:17 PM

Here they are. I cannot detect any sign of alteration: the curve is contiguous, smooth and there are no signs of any work on the area.

Andreas Volk · 2nd October 2007, 02:27 PM

Hello Ariel,
Thank you very much for the close up - that is a strange beast. Actually I was suspecting something like what I tried to describe with the red lines in the attached picture.
As this sword also has a fitting scabbard i already asumed that (even if it was made from cut down kora) the tip would have been properly heat treated etc.
But I agree - from your pictures I can't see any feature that would hint this to be a "grinded/cut down" piece.
So we have to assume that it isn't.

Thanks a lot for the clarification. Something new to look at !

Andreas

28th September 2007, 11:41 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nepalese Pra-swords When we think of Nepalese swords, we usually mean Kukri and Kora. As per Rawson, the story is more comlex. Until 1324, Nepal was ruled by Indial princes of Mithila. Then, it was conquered by the Rajputs. After that, Gurkhas took over in 1768 Kora was the national sword of the Gurkhas. Kukri , apparently, is a descendant of the ancient Kopis-like swords of Ajanta. Here is, what I think, the original pra-Kukri. Pay attention that there is no "cho" Attached Images

1st October 2007, 05:42 PM	#9
Andreas Volk Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: South of Germany Posts: 8	reworked kora ? Very interesting beast ... might I ask for a close up picture of the tip ? Just to "exclude" that we are looking at a kora with a down-grinded and then reworked and again heat treated tip. regards Andreas

1st October 2007, 11:17 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here they are. I cannot detect any sign of alteration: the curve is contiguous, smooth and there are no signs of any work on the area. Attached Images

2nd October 2007, 02:27 PM	#12
Andreas Volk Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: South of Germany Posts: 8	strange beast Hello Ariel, Thank you very much for the close up - that is a strange beast. Actually I was suspecting something like what I tried to describe with the red lines in the attached picture. As this sword also has a fitting scabbard i already asumed that (even if it was made from cut down kora) the tip would have been properly heat treated etc. But I agree - from your pictures I can't see any feature that would hint this to be a "grinded/cut down" piece. So we have to assume that it isn't. Thanks a lot for the clarification. Something new to look at ! Andreas Attached Images

29th September 2007, 05:44 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Ariel, I have heard of this and even seen some examples of Nepalese stuff that does not look "typical". thanks for sharing this.

29th September 2007, 07:54 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	How long is the back edge on this sword Ariel ?

30th September 2007, 12:10 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No back edge at all. Looks like Sossun Patta, only shortish: the blade is 21.5" straight line from the bottom of the lower handle ring.

30th September 2007, 07:02 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This is a most interesting example of 18th century kora, especially with the unusual variant blade form. By the latter 18th century the preferred Gorkhali weapon was the kukri, and it seems that the kora had been for the most part reserved for ceremonial or sacrificial use. While that may well be the case, it seems that many of the kora I have seen are much like this in simplicity, suggesting fighting rather than ceremonial use. Possibly the influence of the so called spear point blade of cavalry sabres is seen on this example, further emphasizing the probability of combat use, despite the lack of weighted end. It seems generally accepted that both the kukri and the kora share thier probable ancestry from the kopis, and although the direct progression is unclear, they both seem to have existed concurrently. The heavier kukri with its dual purpose attributes both in utility and combat seems to have prevailed in favor, especially as the famed Gurkha regiments were formed in the early 19th century.

30th September 2007, 11:19 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Interesting piece Ariel, If one goes pre.1800 thier are many unusualy bladed Nepalese weapons, kukri, kora & other strange beasts, some typicle Yataghan shaped even ,most that dont appear in western litriture & collections. I think the origin of the kukri is still wide open myself, gaps of many centurys in most reasonings, which makes it all debatable. I think kora were often used in Nepal later than often supposed, not just for sacrafice either. Their have been a few photo about, saddley I dont have rights to them though. There are still armourys there with lorry loads of rusty, holed, falling apart relics them, realy sad when one sees a few were inlayed in fairly thick gold even & were other what once great pieces. Most serious market traders & of course dealers there can find you 20 or so in a few minutes to peruse. Spiral

1st October 2007, 01:49 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hello Kai, Thanks very much for answering! You are right in that using the term kora for this weapon may be a bit arbitrary, and often specific terminology in describing ethnographic weapons can be both frustrating and misleading. The distinct double roundel hilt seen on the kora of course has been used as well on many variant weapons of the subcontinent, thank you for clarifying that point. All best regards, Jim

1st October 2007, 06:47 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Good point Andreas!!! ....couldnt resist! This doesnt seem ground down, but I really cant tell, many of the guys have a better eye for those characteristics than I do for sure. Best regards, Jim