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#1 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 910
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The Moderator's Team is considering this new 'rules set' for the swap forum:
1. This forum is to be used only for the posting of classified advertisements for ethnographic related items. Please update your ad when an item is no longer available for purchase. 2. BUYER BEWARE (caveat emptor). This Forum is NOT moderated, and the website (including the forums, staff and owner) is not responsible for anything posted here. The seller is solely responsible for his or her postings. 3. Ads without the following may be deleted without notice: asking price, seller's email address. 4. Ads with the following may be deleted without notice: links to eBay or other auctions, links to commercial websites. 5. All other rules of these forums must be observed. Constructive comments and observations on the swap forum, on how it exists presently and how it may be improved, may be made as replies to this thread or may be privately communicated to the moderator of your choice. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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Thanks for the heads up Lee, you have mail and you are most welcome to use points within for further discussions with the team.
Thanks Gav |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Hi Lee,
I am assuming the "1" would include books related to antique/ethnographic weapons of all sorts? Regarding "3"...............often a seller is prepared to accept "reasonable offers" on an item or may not have a clue as to an items worth, OR may have several items for sale and would prefer to deal with GENUINE buyers rather than "tire kickers". I agree with all other proposed requirements of this rule but would personally prefer to see the need to state a price removed. Also don't forget that this Forum covers "wanted" ads which it would impossible to put a price on. While I accept the need for rules, I would not like to see things get too cumbersome or restrictive. Status quo seems to be working OK????????? ![]() Regards Stuart |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
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Hi Lee,
Why changing the rules as it is working as it is now? Here my opinion: About 1, 2 and 5 agreed. About 3: I don't agree, because sometimes you can come to a price, swap, after letting people on the forum know that you are considering letting a piece go....Maybe somebody wants it badly enough to offer a price that the owner will pulled over the line to let it go for. Than 2 collectors are happy. The one who sold/swapped it, and the one who needed this piece to complete his collection.... About 4: don't agree. What is the problem of letting collectors know that there is something on auction or for sale on a personal website or ebay? What's wrong of showing people were to find stuff they collect? Nobody is forced to visit the website or ebay link and also nobody is forced to buy an item... Just my opinion! Rg, Maurice |
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#5 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,224
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Hello Lee,
I feel that too much rules might slowly suficate this forum. Look at the keris swap forum... We extensivley discussed the rules and I am happy that we banned "profesional" traders on that part (as they where often selling newly made and/or pimped up crap á blingbling ![]() But on the entno swap I don't see much crappy stuff being offered. I am happy with the updates that certain traders post there. (although if needed I can ofcourse sign up to there newsletters.) But, if I sign up to their newsletters I have one reason less to visit the swap, so one reason less to visit the forum ![]() So my opinion on nr. 4 : don't agree As for point 3. An asking price would be appreciated, but is not absolutely necesarry for me. mentioning an e-mail address. No, rather not. I don't mind being contacted by forum members, but putting my e-mail address out open will mean that everybody can contact me, and above that add me to spam or mailings. Fyi, I have no spam filter and I receive "zero" spam by e-mail because I am rather choosy of where I leavy my address. So as for Nr. 3 don't agree. The other points are fine with me. Best regards, Willem |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
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I sincerely hope that there has been more interest in this subject than the replies here suggest!!
As it is too late to edit my original post, I just want to add that, in further relation to Proposal 3, that as this Forum is PRIMARILY for MEMBERS, the reply "system" of Private Messages already exists by way of the Member List, and it should be the MEMBERS CHOICE as to whether he chooses to devulge his email address. Also I wish to reitterate as other replies here have indicated, that the present situation appears to be working well, and why change something which is NOT BROKEN !! PERHAPS SOME OF THE MODERATORS WOULD CARE TO COMMENT HERE ON WHY THEY SEE THE NEED TO CHANGE THINGS?? ALSO, SINCE THIS POTENTIALLY WILL AFFECT THAT SECTION, I BELIEVE THAT THIS DISCUSSION SHOULD ALSO APPEAR AS A STICKY ON THE SWAP FORUM. Regards, Stuart Last edited by kahnjar1; 9th July 2010 at 10:39 PM. |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California
Posts: 94
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Hello.
I don't post too often, but I have used the Swap Forum to trade pieces with other collectors/dealers in the past. I haven't posted anything in the past with prices, because when I trade, prices aren't discussed, due to the fact that everyone usually has an idea of what they want, or what they think your piece/pieces are worth. As far as taking away the ability to advertise personal websites....I have one, and although it is ethnographic, I haven't advertised it here because it isn't weapons based. The sites that are advertised in the swap forum are weapons based, and from time to time the site owners will remind us that they are still updating the sites, or having sales, etc. If you block them from advertising, will people discussing particular items from so and so's website (past or present) be a problem? What about people using captured images of pieces from other individual's sites? As for ebay, I have both sold and bought there, and don't really see a problem with linking ads to it. I've seen people post on the swap forum first, and after a while post that they have moved the item to ebay, because of lack of interest. My thought is just to keep things as they are. Thanks, Joe |
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#8 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
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I'm not an active user of the swap forum, but I'm not happy with some of these rules:
1. General: Vikingsword is *easy* to get to on Google and is also cited as a reputable source on Wikipedia. In other words, anything posted here is readily findable. How much information did you want to post about ourselves and our collections on this extremely public site? If I was running a scam, this would be among the first places I would look for plausible information. 2. We don't give appraisals, but you want us to post asking prices? These policies seem to be contradictory. 3. The biggest question: what will it improve? --Will it stop scams? Absolutely not. --Will it make us and our collections less secure? A bit. We would have to link an object with a price, an online name, and an email. It's the risk we take selling stuff online, but since it won't stop scams, I'm not sure what it will do. 4. Links to commercial sites: I'm absolutely unclear about why this is warranted. Here's an example: I'm working on getting a manuscript published, and I know that it might be of interest to people here. When it gets published, I was planning on posting a link to amazon so that people could buy it if interested. That's obviously a no go under these rules. But it would be okay if I posted that information in the main discussion forum? How about if I posted a link to a museum gift store as opposed to Amazon? Right now, I'm on the list of people who don't understand what problems these rules are intended to fix. Best, F |
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#9 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
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Fearn
You said We don't give appraisals, but you want us to post asking prices? These policies seem to be contradictory. 1-You are correct no appraisal on the public forum but that does not stop any member from contacting another member in private to see what he or she thinks something is worth. Also one can just go to ebay or one of the many dealers of antique weapons web sites to get an idea of what a piece is worth 2-Have you ever gone into a store that did not post prices? When you go into a store to buy a camera do you expect the store to post a price or do you take the camera with no price tag and go up to the store owner and let him decide how much he wants to charge you? He might decide to charge you more because you drove up to the store in a BMW while the next person might get a different price because they drove to the store in a Honda civic. Please don't give me that line that has been used before by some "I tell you a price privately and if it's too much then you don't have too buy it". Try that line at your local food mart store excuse me sir there is no price posted on this quart of milk? Pssst over here.... Well the price for you is $20 if it's too much than don't buy it! It should be all about transparency here. If you want to use the swap you should be able to come up with a asking price that you think meets your expectations of what you want to get from the sale of said item and post it for all members to see. I think this is a pretty reasonable request. Last edited by Lew; 10th July 2010 at 03:36 AM. |
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#10 | |
Member
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Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
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I don't want to comment on anything said above, EXCEPT the need to post a price when an item is up for swap. Often price or worth does not come into it when a swap is arranged. If both parties to the deal are happy, the actual value of the pieces exchanged may be way apart. No mandatory listing of prices remains my vote. Stuart |
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#11 | |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
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In a trade situation you mean? I think price is only required if you are selling not trading that is my take on it. ![]() |
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#12 |
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Yes Lew. I thought the term SWAP meant just that.
Since you are obviously "live" I think that the Members need some comment from the Moderators as to the perceived need for ANY of these changes. If the Forum becomes too difficult with large numbers of rules, I feel that people will start looking elsewhere. It would be a great pity to break something which is in my opinion working well anyway. Stuart |
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#13 | |||
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
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In terms of regular dealers making people aware of their websites, websites can always be posted in a member's profile page. Perhaps dealer members could have a dealer designation on their avatar so that other members would know to look in their profile for their websites. As for updates, i would assume that active dealers are always updating their websites and that interested parties would check in from time to time anyway. |
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#14 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
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David has a point the reason we come to this forum is for knowlege and sharing thoughts,ideas of our collecting experiences. One should not use the swap rules as a reason to leave the forum.
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#15 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
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#16 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Poole England
Posts: 441
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Gents,
I have been following this and trying to make my mind up. I do not come here to buy, sell or swap ( although I have done all three ). I come here for knowledge and exchange of information. I have learnt a lot in the 2 years that I have been a member. I think that the present system for the swap forum works well enough, if people want to list their email address and price then it should be up to them. As already stated it is easy enough to look at other sites to get an idea of prices and buyers can make up their own minds about what an item is worth TO THEM. So item 3 is not necessary for me. As far as item 4 goes, I think that a regular contributor should be able to list links, but if someone is only on the site for selling and nothing else then they should be asked to " change their ways" regards Roy |
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#17 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Hi Stu,
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![]() Say, aren't you 'swapping' things ? ![]() Improving swap rules is the issue here ![]() I would never dream with your assumption that, utilizing the swap section, is the major reason to frequent Vickingsword forum ![]() Fernando |
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#18 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
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Gav |
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#19 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
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As for posting an asking price for a sale items. I belong to a few other collector sites and they are pretty clear on this matter you must post a price if you are selling an item. So if these other forums use this rule why is it such a big deal here? Btw email addresses should be optional IMO.
Gav Since you are a dealer which one of the purposed rules do you have issues with? |
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#20 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
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#21 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
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I must also point out that the very first line of this thread states that "The Moderator's Team is considering this new 'rules set' for the swap forum."
It's very interesting to see who is getting all bent out of shape over this. Nothing has been put in place and the very fact that it has been put out here for discussion should tell you all something. Now...everyone breathe... ![]() BTW, i also think that email addresses from sellers should be optional. On the other side of that coin however, the seller might want to consider that posting their email address would allow more potential buyers to contact them, since lurkers who are not members would be unable to use PM. |
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#22 | |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
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I really do not get your statement? We are only changing some rules on the swap which are still open to discussion I don't think that these are Earth shattering requests here? |
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#23 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
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I don't use the swap forum much... well, at all TBH, but I will do at some point, and in fact I've been meaning to get around to putting some things on there.
To be completely honest, I think there are enough rules already. I've had a few things to list for a while and I keep thinking 'Oh I'll put that on Vikingsword' then I think 'what was the rule about putting something up that's been discussed'? Has it been long enough, will I upset anyone.... So I haven't yet posted anything. In my humble opinion, for that reason the rules already work against the best interests of members in that respect. If a member decides to sell something that's been discussed, it's just easier to sell it elsewhere than risk contravention of the rules here. I would respectfully offer the opinion that it should be encouraged for members to offer items here first. Especially as many members have somewhat 'esoteric' tastes that are difficult to cater for. A healthy swap forum would seem to be in everyones best interests. Also, as someone who often sells things via 'offers' I have to disagree with making a price mandatory. As for links to off-site sales..... Well, I can see an argument for not allowing people to simply use this place as a shop-window for sure, but to be frank, some of the commercial wesite owners who promote their sites/items here are absolute cornerstones of the community. Like Gav! Always helpful, generous with his time and a total asset to the site (Send the fiver to the usual address Gav ![]() Of course Gav's not the only one, appologies to those not mentioned. So for me, leave as-is or loosen the rules a little! The only limit I would be in favour of would be to stop people ONLY posting in the swap forum. Anyway, thats my 2c. Total respect to the great Mod team of course. Hope I've not offended anyone, as I consider you all friends. |
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#24 | |||
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
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Rules are rules and I have no problem with rules, dealer or not if they be put in place, they must however be clear. My initial thoughts were expressed to Lee and I am sure here has bought them to the table internally as I have seen one point expressed above. I'm pretty easy going Lew, my philosopy is simple, what comes will come, what stays will stay and what goes will go. The rules may come the rules may go, thats life, but saying that, I like all things to be equal and everyone to be on an even playing field in a shared enviroment, I am like that and very fair with my own employees in my own role as a State Business Coordinator for a large rail company, no one has the upper hand and we all share the same open office plan, nothing is hidden. What is the definition of a dealer by the way? Is it some one who makes their living out of dealing? I ask cause that aint me. Mine is a hobby, I buy and sell and have a point of sale for the benfit of others to find what they want and to grow my own personal collections, nothing more, it doesn't line my pockets or build me ivory towers. Look what has happened with the Keris swap forum, sure there was a need to do something but now Keirs swap has dried up, people don't bother. IMHO the people being the issue in the Keris forum should have been handled, not the Keris swap forum, it 'appears' to benefit no one but the moderators now. Is there a need to do something about the ethno forum? Obviously or there wouldn't be this discussion going on. Tell us what the issues are ![]() I feel that after seeing the keris swap 'die' in 'absolute' rules, this ethno swap might too. If the people are an issue, talk to the people and get a resolution, if dealers post to often in a style thats not to taste talk to them, if single sellers (who I still call a dealer depending of frequency) are bumping to much to often talk to them. The issue I see in these proposed changes is not seeing the clartiy of the 'whys', the full picture. Is there dealer or Ebay resentment out there? I don't know? Is there? I know I do a lot for free for a lot of people here and they are the only ones who see this, recently I helped ISPN dispose of his Dha to a non member, nothing for me. Will I take an interest in the swap forum and the other people within its pages if I am closed out because I have a website, probably not, just another step closer to the keris forum in my eyes and others I know. Will I be missed in the swap forum, I think not. Will it bother me? Not really. Will I continue to converse in the forum pages, of course, life goes on. But I put to you Lew as a moderator rep; Why the proposed changes? The full picture. What are the becauses behind the proposed changes? Most of all, what are the expected benefits from the proposed changes? To change anything there must be a benefit??? Quote:
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I do see part of the picture expressed about where it was and were it is, this is nice to have it suggested. If these are the reasons at to why this is proposed great, spell it out loud and clear, put a sticky in the swap forum and monitor it. Too easy. For me points 1,2,5 all good but points 3&4 all good too but the statements are non clear proposals. I have trouble getting my head around the word 'may', too vague. What is it? It either will or it wont, this is my question about the use of this word 'may' in points 3&4. Answering this may add a little more clarity. The rest of the content I see as just 'what to do' notions not why reasons. Gav |
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#25 | ||
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
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#26 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Great and valid points within. I think it is clear that the swap forum is NOT the reason people are here, however the real double edged sword is we are all here to discusss learn and study these wonderful weapons but think for a momnet, and yes there are many external avenues for commerce but without commerce be it here or anywhere else, there is no flow of product to follow. No product, nothing new, nothing new, no learning, no discussions. Please take it as a point context, not an absolute. I'll take a back seat for a while and see what the broader community have to say as they are what makes this forum so fantastic to participate. I look forward to seeing the questions I pose answered in time. Gav |
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#27 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Hi Lew and all,
I think we've still got some contradictions here. Personally, I have bought a couple of things on the swap forum, and it is useful to have a price on there. However, that forum isn't a store, and I respect the people who only give out price info when contacted. I also respect those who want to swap things. That leaves me out, because I have a small collection, and I would have to swap money for most of the things I see. In that sense, a desire to trade among friends is certainly exclusionary. So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems. --the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers. --the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive. --Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites. --Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else. Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics. I'd suggest two things: 1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted. 2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year. |
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#28 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
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as a moderator on a commercial security software firewall's user support forum, i am a bit more paranoid about revealing my mailing address or posting links on a searchable site that is open to bots and slurp spiders et al.
posting items and photos of my stuff and discussing them in the appropriate forums is one thing, but if i decide to sell, i'd sell somewhere i did not have to reveal personal details to the world that could compromise my location. it's not tough to find, but i don't go advertising myself either. for similar reasons i'd not want to post prices for my stuff that they could add up to see if it were worthwhile paying me a surprise visit some night. it should be a recommendation, not an absolute requirement. i also see no reason to not post that an item is now up for auction on e-pray or other site, as long as it is obvious that the poster is a discussion member here and the item auctioned is indeed his, especially if he's advertised it here & no-one has jumped at it. i have not as yet used the swap forum but am uneasy about 3 & 4. i would go along with them as recommendations, but not as absolutes. something to prohibit posts until members have a certain number of posts in the discussion fora, to discourage dealers only using the swap/sale forum would also be appropriate. the mods here are smart enough to use their discretion in grey areas, if the rules are too tight, it removes their discretionary powers. in other words, let common sense apply. i like the caveat emptor bit ![]() |
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#29 | ||
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
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![]() Also sorry that you have a chip on your shoulder in regards to the larger collections of senior members, but i don't think there is any kind of exclusionary club going on here. I am also pretty convinced that the large majority of items that are put up for swap most often end up being let go for a cash sum in private messaging dealings. This is why i think it is probably best for trader/sellers to place a cash value even if their initial intention is to trade. That would also give someone who is unclear of the value of an item an idea of what would be a worth piece to offer in exchange. And believe me Fearn, that we have driven unsavory, dishonest dealers off the Keris Swap is in no way "terrible for everyone else". Unless it is your desire to purchase a countless array of contemporary keris artificially aged and presented as Mataram or Mojophahit weapons. Then you are obviously missing out on being ripped off. Sorry if we interfered with that. ![]() If you spend anytime on the actual keris forum though you might find that the discussions there are alive and deeply informative. And any collector who wants to pass on a weapon through the swap can do so without much trouble and without paying the percentages required for eBay and other online auctions. I would be interested in knowing exactly what rules the Keris Swap has that are preventing sales from happening. Quote:
As for point #2, how do we decide what is actively malicious material? Who amongst us is knowledgeable enough in all fields of weapons to judge whether a comment is correct or just a smear? Who wants to give even more of their time to trying to sort all that out? And as i recall there was a great deal of trouble on last year's swap board when someone made an inaccurate comment the killed a very big deal for one of our members. I don't recall the exact details, but i am sure someone can fill you in. I think it might have been Gavin's reputation that got unjustly smeared. Forgive me if i am wrong on that Gav. This is why we installed the policy of not permitting members to make any comments of items that are put up for swap. |
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#30 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 400
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Hi,
I must say that I appriciate the way this forum is once set up and its quite normal that from time to time you overvieuw the system and want to makes things better,renew etc. Also rules may change as time learns and collectors and ways to collect changes, no problem with that all. Being collector and dealer in one I have always struggled with the question whats the part in me that collects and which part is the dealer? Its quite an unique job and still I haven't found an answer for it. Commercial is a easy word but " we dealers" don't run a supermarket or photographer store, most dealers ( I don't know any dealer who doesn't collect) are collector themself. We are buying and selling mostly scarce objects and be sure finding, describing and selling cost a lot of time. A lot of time is mostly invested in study as knowledge is a thing the dealer should have to select his objects. This forum has always been a great place to share info for both parties ( dealers,collectors) I can be wrong in my interpretation but I have the feeling that there will come more space between the two with the new rules. If its good for the forum the time will learn, we'll see. I really hope course I think the intensions are well meant. for me personal I don't think a link or not make any difference in selling results, but I prefer to have the freedom to do so. ( there are so much great links coming this year and I am sure you wouldn't miss them! ![]() best regards and good luck with the forum!, Arjan |
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