An odd dha with dried leaves on it

Mark · 6th April 2006, 02:30 AM

This is a dha that someone asked my opinion on. My guess was Cambodian, but it is just a guess. Vietnamese and Thai are also possiblities.

What is especially intriguing are the dried leaves that are tied to the scabbard. They are very likely bamboo leaves (definitely monocot, anyway). As you can see, they are folded and tied in a very particular way, with sticks piercing and holding them together (there are also holes where a few are missing). Has anyone ever seen this before? Any ideas about its significance?

Ian · 6th April 2006, 03:28 AM

Hi Mark:

That looks like a very old blade, and the guard seems to be contemporary to the blade.

The style of hilt suggests Cambodian, although the disk guard is a little wider than usual.

The blade is not really a continuous curve. The last third is curved up but the rest of the blade is essentially straight. Don't think I've seen that before on a dha. And the blade is narrower than most dha. I have an old Cambodian dha that also has a vey narrow blade, so there may be some consonance with Mark's suggestion of a Cambodian origin. The vegetative decoration could reflect a ritual purpose.

I'm stumped in coming up with a precise attribution. Cambodian seems most likely, but Vietnamese or Lao are not out of the question. The single ferrule and wooden handle is also a feature of N. Thailand, but the wide disk guard puts me off a Thai origin.

Intriguing piece.

Ian.

RobT · 6th April 2006, 03:39 AM

Hi all,
Could the leaves have once been joined together to form a pouch to hold a by knife as on a Mandau sheath?
Sincerely,
RobT

Titus Pullo · 6th April 2006, 06:37 AM

I think it's Cambodian, though. I thought Thai swords are much shorter and probably heavier for fighting at close range. People think if it's heavy it's cumbersome. But you know what? Boxers are the best athletes...particularily Muay Thai boxers at the top.

PUFF · 6th April 2006, 10:45 AM

The blade has Katana tapering/curving profile with crude Tsuba, no Habaki abd has Dahb style hilt (and tang

I guessed). This is a good example of Katana-inspired SE asian blades. There is a Japanese record for a trading route between S. Japan and malaya peninsula in the late 16th cent. And in the early 17th cent., Japanese merchants and samurais (mostly ronin

) moved to Siam and established a Japanese settlement in Ayuthaya.

The story is their leader, Yamada Nagamasa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamada_Nagamasa), got a high position in Ayuthaya. And later, he moved to be a ruler in Nakhon Sri Thammarat (A province in the southern part of Thailand). After the Japanese colony in the Nakorn Sri Thammarat was destroyed by a new king of Siam, many Japanese manged to flee to the Cambodia. And these is the reason why Katana-inspired blades can be found in Cambodia, Central and southern Thailand

.

Any of you having a chance to visit Ayuthaya city should take a look of the still exist Japanese village.

PUFF · 6th April 2006, 12:23 PM

I don't have any idea about the bamboo leaves. For me, the leaves were cut and arranged in some manner. The material 's not very old. Looks like they has been used in annually traditional ritual for people in some area.

VANDOO · 6th April 2006, 05:45 PM

I WOULD THINK THE LEAVES ARE THERE FOR CEREMONIAL PURPOSES, VARIOUS KINDS OF LEAVES ARE USED FOR DIFFERENT THINGS THE WORLD OVER. THE LEAVES LOOK LIKE TI LEAVES TO ME RATHER THAN BAMBOO AND THERE MAY BE MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF LEAF ,DIFFICULT TO TELL FROM A PICTURE. THE TI LEAF IS USED IN VARIOUS CEREMONYS AND TO PLACE OFFERINGS ON THE MAIRAE (ALTER) IN OLD HAWAIIAN CEREMONYS. THERE ARE ALSO SPECIAL LEAVES USED IN BORNEO TO PLACE ON THE HEADS TAKEN IN HEADHUNTING DAYS, THERE IS A RITUAL SUPPOSED TO BE PREFORMED EVERY YEAR TO REPLACE THESE LEAVES.
IF NOT CEREMONIAL THEY COULD BE THERE TO USE TO WIPE DOWN THE BLADE WHEN IT GOT DIRTY OR WET, A MORE EXOTIC CONJECTURE WOULD BE THAT THEY WERE POISON AND COULD BE WIPED ON THE BLADE JUST BEFORE A FIGHT. ALL JUST GUESSES

A NICE OLD EXAMPLE BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE WIPED THE BLADE WITH DRY LEAVES MORE OFTEN.

kronckew · 9th April 2006, 08:21 AM

i've heard that burmese writing evolved from writing on leaves, could it be a prayer or magic spell to 'bless' the blade and it's user? if so, opening the folds to expose the writing will let the magic out and 'ruin' the prayer....

Titus Pullo · 9th April 2006, 09:09 AM

I'm not sure if writing on leaves has anything to do with it, though! If you look at the Burman writing, it has no corners; this means...when they wrote with letters, which have no corners, it would not damage the delicate leaves. The Burmese letters themselves evolved from Southern Indian ( I think ) and Mon.

PUFF · 9th April 2006, 09:56 AM

I just check my bamboo leaves. They are different from the pics above. The bamboo leaves don't have interconnection between major veins while the pics above shows network of linkers between major veins.

And I think the crude string 's made of banana tree.

Mark · 10th April 2006, 11:04 PM

Great discussion! I see what you mean about the network of cross-veins between the major parallel veins. I am sure the plant is a "monocot" at any rate, a major division among flowering plants that includes grasses (like bamboo, corn, etc.), palm trees, lilies, and ti and many, many others.

I'm told there is no writing apparent on the leaves. I am struck by the pattern in which the leaves are pinned together. It is more than just folding and holding them together. One part looks folded end-to-end, another is folded at an angle, and another is sort of rolled and pinned flat.

And here is a crazy idea: its a duck. Don't laugh. Look at the last photo upside down - the squarish rolled-and-pinned piece is the head, the diagonal piece the neck, and the large bunch is the body. Maybe a cormorant. In fact, now that I look closely, the parts forming the "neck" and "head" seem to be all one leaf, cut to the mid-rib and fold around. At any rate, the diagonal edges on the "neck" are cut in.

Anybody see something else in the shape? That is all I could come up with after I started thinking its "messy" look might actually be deliberate.

Rick · 10th April 2006, 11:52 PM

Gotta beg to differ about the leaves Boys .

Pretty sure they are a variety of Bamboo .
The leaves on my Wife's plants have the same pattern .

As for the duck business seen in the folding ; I'm just not seeing it ; then again I am an unimaginitive old so and so .

/flunked my Rorscharch test .

// ducks .....

6th April 2006, 02:30 AM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	An odd dha with dried leaves on it This is a dha that someone asked my opinion on. My guess was Cambodian, but it is just a guess. Vietnamese and Thai are also possiblities. What is especially intriguing are the dried leaves that are tied to the scabbard. They are very likely bamboo leaves (definitely monocot, anyway). As you can see, they are folded and tied in a very particular way, with sticks piercing and holding them together (there are also holes where a few are missing). Has anyone ever seen this before? Any ideas about its significance? Attached Images

6th April 2006, 03:39 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	just a guess Hi all, Could the leaves have once been joined together to form a pouch to hold a by knife as on a Mandau sheath? Sincerely, RobT

6th April 2006, 10:45 AM	#5
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The blade has Katana tapering/curving profile with crude Tsuba, no Habaki abd has Dahb style hilt (and tang I guessed). This is a good example of Katana-inspired SE asian blades. There is a Japanese record for a trading route between S. Japan and malaya peninsula in the late 16th cent. And in the early 17th cent., Japanese merchants and samurais (mostly ronin ) moved to Siam and established a Japanese settlement in Ayuthaya. The story is their leader, Yamada Nagamasa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamada_Nagamasa), got a high position in Ayuthaya. And later, he moved to be a ruler in Nakhon Sri Thammarat (A province in the southern part of Thailand). After the Japanese colony in the Nakorn Sri Thammarat was destroyed by a new king of Siam, many Japanese manged to flee to the Cambodia. And these is the reason why Katana-inspired blades can be found in Cambodia, Central and southern Thailand . Any of you having a chance to visit Ayuthaya city should take a look of the still exist Japanese village. Last edited by PUFF; 6th April 2006 at 12:26 PM.

10th April 2006, 11:04 PM	#11
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Great discussion! I see what you mean about the network of cross-veins between the major parallel veins. I am sure the plant is a "monocot" at any rate, a major division among flowering plants that includes grasses (like bamboo, corn, etc.), palm trees, lilies, and ti and many, many others. I'm told there is no writing apparent on the leaves. I am struck by the pattern in which the leaves are pinned together. It is more than just folding and holding them together. One part looks folded end-to-end, another is folded at an angle, and another is sort of rolled and pinned flat. And here is a crazy idea: its a duck. Don't laugh. Look at the last photo upside down - the squarish rolled-and-pinned piece is the head, the diagonal piece the neck, and the large bunch is the body. Maybe a cormorant. In fact, now that I look closely, the parts forming the "neck" and "head" seem to be all one leaf, cut to the mid-rib and fold around. At any rate, the diagonal edges on the "neck" are cut in. Anybody see something else in the shape? That is all I could come up with after I started thinking its "messy" look might actually be deliberate. Attached Images

10th April 2006, 11:52 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Bamboo Leaves . Gotta beg to differ about the leaves Boys . Pretty sure they are a variety of Bamboo . The leaves on my Wife's plants have the same pattern . As for the duck business seen in the folding ; I'm just not seeing it ; then again I am an unimaginitive old so and so . /flunked my Rorscharch test . // ducks .....

6th April 2006, 03:28 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hi Mark: That looks like a very old blade, and the guard seems to be contemporary to the blade. The style of hilt suggests Cambodian, although the disk guard is a little wider than usual. The blade is not really a continuous curve. The last third is curved up but the rest of the blade is essentially straight. Don't think I've seen that before on a dha. And the blade is narrower than most dha. I have an old Cambodian dha that also has a vey narrow blade, so there may be some consonance with Mark's suggestion of a Cambodian origin. The vegetative decoration could reflect a ritual purpose. I'm stumped in coming up with a precise attribution. Cambodian seems most likely, but Vietnamese or Lao are not out of the question. The single ferrule and wooden handle is also a feature of N. Thailand, but the wide disk guard puts me off a Thai origin. Intriguing piece. Ian.

6th April 2006, 06:37 AM	#4
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	I think it's Cambodian, though. I thought Thai swords are much shorter and probably heavier for fighting at close range. People think if it's heavy it's cumbersome. But you know what? Boxers are the best athletes...particularily Muay Thai boxers at the top.

6th April 2006, 12:23 PM	#6
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I don't have any idea about the bamboo leaves. For me, the leaves were cut and arranged in some manner. The material 's not very old. Looks like they has been used in annually traditional ritual for people in some area.

6th April 2006, 05:45 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD THINK THE LEAVES ARE THERE FOR CEREMONIAL PURPOSES, VARIOUS KINDS OF LEAVES ARE USED FOR DIFFERENT THINGS THE WORLD OVER. THE LEAVES LOOK LIKE TI LEAVES TO ME RATHER THAN BAMBOO AND THERE MAY BE MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF LEAF ,DIFFICULT TO TELL FROM A PICTURE. THE TI LEAF IS USED IN VARIOUS CEREMONYS AND TO PLACE OFFERINGS ON THE MAIRAE (ALTER) IN OLD HAWAIIAN CEREMONYS. THERE ARE ALSO SPECIAL LEAVES USED IN BORNEO TO PLACE ON THE HEADS TAKEN IN HEADHUNTING DAYS, THERE IS A RITUAL SUPPOSED TO BE PREFORMED EVERY YEAR TO REPLACE THESE LEAVES. IF NOT CEREMONIAL THEY COULD BE THERE TO USE TO WIPE DOWN THE BLADE WHEN IT GOT DIRTY OR WET, A MORE EXOTIC CONJECTURE WOULD BE THAT THEY WERE POISON AND COULD BE WIPED ON THE BLADE JUST BEFORE A FIGHT. ALL JUST GUESSES A NICE OLD EXAMPLE BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE WIPED THE BLADE WITH DRY LEAVES MORE OFTEN.

9th April 2006, 08:21 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	i've heard that burmese writing evolved from writing on leaves, could it be a prayer or magic spell to 'bless' the blade and it's user? if so, opening the folds to expose the writing will let the magic out and 'ruin' the prayer....

9th April 2006, 09:09 AM	#9
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	I'm not sure if writing on leaves has anything to do with it, though! If you look at the Burman writing, it has no corners; this means...when they wrote with letters, which have no corners, it would not damage the delicate leaves. The Burmese letters themselves evolved from Southern Indian ( I think ) and Mon.

9th April 2006, 09:56 AM	#10
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I just check my bamboo leaves. They are different from the pics above. The bamboo leaves don't have interconnection between major veins while the pics above shows network of linkers between major veins. And I think the crude string 's made of banana tree.