Superstition in connection with lodestone?

Jens Nordlunde · 7th May 2006, 03:12 PM

In several books I have seen that the ore used for making ingots in India was lodestone (magnetic iron) ore, latest in ‘The Book of the Sword’ by Richard F. Burton, reprint 1972. Page 111. Other books do not mention lodestone, only iron ore is mentioned, although several of the books mention the quality difference of the iron ores.
I find it hard to believe that only lodestone ore was used for all the ingots. Could this be an error, started long ago and copied from book to book?
There would no doubt have been some superstition in connection with a sword made of a lodestone ingot, but if all the weapons were made of lodestone ingots the spell would have gone. Besides what would they have done with all the other iron ores, as lodestone ores must have been only a little part of the iron ores in use?

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2006, 11:08 PM

Hi Jens,
You know I get really lost in all this scientific stuff, but I tried to recall some of the fascinating discussion from earlier threads of yours on magnetic iron.
In looking at the Burton reference, I notice that the term he actually used was magnetic ore rather than lodestone. Apparantly the ore is known as magnetite, and although it has the ability to become magnetized (lodestone), it is not all magnetic. I found that magnetite is one of several oxidized minerals that provide iron ore, and there are some very complex metallurgical properties involved in thier variation, however being magnetized is not necessarily one of them. As iron however, the iron may become magnetic or attracted to a magnet.

Burton indicates that malleable iron, made from magnetic ore, is placed with chopped wood in a crucible, then covered with green leaves of certain plants. The importance of these plants talismanically or magically is discussed in Figiel (p.15) and of course in Elgood, and although these sacred additives are intended to increase the potency or quality of the product supernaturally, thier presence as an additional source of carbon was probably of most importance.

Pant (p.92) notes that certain ores of local 'magnetic' schist mixed with quantities of haemetites (another category of iron ore) along with mixed ferruginous sands were mixed together to produce the raw material to be smelted into the ingots.

I think the term 'magnetic' simply referred to the iron ore in general and it seems strange that the term was so loosely used. Lodestone , or magnetized iron seems to occur relatively rarely in natural ore deposits, and can only become such if the magnetite carries certain crystalline or mineral components from what I understand. Apparantly the most typical manner of creation is from high intesity electrical charge, i.e. lightning.
With the lightning storms here in Texas, it seems everything metallic should be magnetized, and all of us should have hair like Einstein!!

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 8th May 2006, 01:34 PM

Hi Jim,

I was of the impression that lodestone and magnetic ore was the same, but maybe I am wrong. May point with this thread was to stress that not only magnetic ore was used for ingots, an impression you can get when reading some of the books, ‘normal’ iron ore was used as well and in a much bigger quantity. This difference in the ores could be the reason why there is/was something magic about iron. The blacksmiths were respected but feared, a nail from a horseshoe, or other small pieces of iron, could make wonders, either in your pocket, buried in front of your house door or hammered into the door poster. Even those not believing in the power of iron might have used it after the devise – better safe than sorry.

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2006, 09:22 PM

Well said Jens

That was what I had thought too, but your question sent me off through the archives here and from what I can understand, the raw material was comprised of pretty much an amalgam of the categories of iro ore. My impression is that one of the secrets of the wootz may lie chemically with the materials used in carburizing the smelted metal. You are very right on the superstitions concerning iron though, and we have been discussing that on the current 'takouba' thread. The blacksmiths it seems were typically pariahs in society, as they dealt in 'black' arts, necessary, yet feared or regarded with considerable apprehension.

I think we had a great discussion a while back on the magnetism imbued in some blades, and certain perspectives on quality or superstition associated with these blades. I am far from any sort of real understanding of metallurgy, but it seems that magnetized iron, lodestone, when reaching a certain temperature (Curie point?) it loses this property. Thus it seems strange that a blade might be magnetic, however I think the lodestone can be remagnetized, so possibly this is what occurs. Help! Metallurgists out there!
Ann? Tom? Karel?

Good thoughts Jens, as always fascinating topics!!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff Pringle · 9th May 2006, 03:51 PM

Lodestone = magnetite, (Fe3O4) - in terms of smelting, the most iron per pound of ore, so in that sense probably very desireable to the ancient smelters, but Hematite (Fe2O3), is not far behind, and they are often found together.
I'm sure they just used what they could get, but liked the richest ore the best.

I also think there's some info on ores in 'Persian Steel', but I can't find my copy

7th May 2006, 03:12 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Superstition in connection with lodestone? In several books I have seen that the ore used for making ingots in India was lodestone (magnetic iron) ore, latest in ‘The Book of the Sword’ by Richard F. Burton, reprint 1972. Page 111. Other books do not mention lodestone, only iron ore is mentioned, although several of the books mention the quality difference of the iron ores. I find it hard to believe that only lodestone ore was used for all the ingots. Could this be an error, started long ago and copied from book to book? There would no doubt have been some superstition in connection with a sword made of a lodestone ingot, but if all the weapons were made of lodestone ingots the spell would have gone. Besides what would they have done with all the other iron ores, as lodestone ores must have been only a little part of the iron ores in use?

7th May 2006, 11:08 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Hi Jens, You know I get really lost in all this scientific stuff, but I tried to recall some of the fascinating discussion from earlier threads of yours on magnetic iron. In looking at the Burton reference, I notice that the term he actually used was magnetic ore rather than lodestone. Apparantly the ore is known as magnetite, and although it has the ability to become magnetized (lodestone), it is not all magnetic. I found that magnetite is one of several oxidized minerals that provide iron ore, and there are some very complex metallurgical properties involved in thier variation, however being magnetized is not necessarily one of them. As iron however, the iron may become magnetic or attracted to a magnet. Burton indicates that malleable iron, made from magnetic ore, is placed with chopped wood in a crucible, then covered with green leaves of certain plants. The importance of these plants talismanically or magically is discussed in Figiel (p.15) and of course in Elgood, and although these sacred additives are intended to increase the potency or quality of the product supernaturally, thier presence as an additional source of carbon was probably of most importance. Pant (p.92) notes that certain ores of local 'magnetic' schist mixed with quantities of haemetites (another category of iron ore) along with mixed ferruginous sands were mixed together to produce the raw material to be smelted into the ingots. I think the term 'magnetic' simply referred to the iron ore in general and it seems strange that the term was so loosely used. Lodestone , or magnetized iron seems to occur relatively rarely in natural ore deposits, and can only become such if the magnetite carries certain crystalline or mineral components from what I understand. Apparantly the most typical manner of creation is from high intesity electrical charge, i.e. lightning. With the lightning storms here in Texas, it seems everything metallic should be magnetized, and all of us should have hair like Einstein!! All the best, Jim

8th May 2006, 01:34 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, I was of the impression that lodestone and magnetic ore was the same, but maybe I am wrong. May point with this thread was to stress that not only magnetic ore was used for ingots, an impression you can get when reading some of the books, ‘normal’ iron ore was used as well and in a much bigger quantity. This difference in the ores could be the reason why there is/was something magic about iron. The blacksmiths were respected but feared, a nail from a horseshoe, or other small pieces of iron, could make wonders, either in your pocket, buried in front of your house door or hammered into the door poster. Even those not believing in the power of iron might have used it after the devise – better safe than sorry.

8th May 2006, 09:22 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Well said Jens That was what I had thought too, but your question sent me off through the archives here and from what I can understand, the raw material was comprised of pretty much an amalgam of the categories of iro ore. My impression is that one of the secrets of the wootz may lie chemically with the materials used in carburizing the smelted metal. You are very right on the superstitions concerning iron though, and we have been discussing that on the current 'takouba' thread. The blacksmiths it seems were typically pariahs in society, as they dealt in 'black' arts, necessary, yet feared or regarded with considerable apprehension. I think we had a great discussion a while back on the magnetism imbued in some blades, and certain perspectives on quality or superstition associated with these blades. I am far from any sort of real understanding of metallurgy, but it seems that magnetized iron, lodestone, when reaching a certain temperature (Curie point?) it loses this property. Thus it seems strange that a blade might be magnetic, however I think the lodestone can be remagnetized, so possibly this is what occurs. Help! Metallurgists out there! Ann? Tom? Karel? Good thoughts Jens, as always fascinating topics!! All the best, Jim

9th May 2006, 03:51 PM	#5
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Lodestone = magnetite, (Fe3O4) - in terms of smelting, the most iron per pound of ore, so in that sense probably very desireable to the ancient smelters, but Hematite (Fe2O3), is not far behind, and they are often found together. I'm sure they just used what they could get, but liked the richest ore the best. I also think there's some info on ores in 'Persian Steel', but I can't find my copy