Tomas Aiala Cup hilt rapier.

[Cerjak]

Here some pic from a cup hilt rapier .
It has a long blade circa 104 cm and overall 121 cm
Blade marks : TOMAS in one side and AIALA in the other side.
Also there is on each side a “cross” stamped and other symbol too ,would like to know if it is only for decoration or there is any signification ..
Also I’m wondering if this sword could be late 17 th century or Early 18 th century ? Military or civilian use.

Any comment on it will be welcome .

Cerjak

[Cerjak]

more

[fernando]

Could that be a mark inh the ricasso, Jean-Luc ?


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[M ELEY]

Spanish colonial? The bars of the hilt brazed directly to the cup, the plainness of the piece and grooved horn grip, the simple, undecorated pommel and quillon ends and lack of a ridge along the cup guard all seem to point to a so-called 'Caribbean cuphilt type'. Just a guess, though and I'll let Fernando or others shine light on this one! In any case, a great dueling rapier!

[fernando]

Looks Iberian to me but ... what do i know ?
The brazed bars could only mean this is a Portuguese sword, according to the basics.
My doubt to define whether this is a civilian or a military sword goes for the knuckle guard being fixed by a screw, a military detail, and the fine long rapier blade, more a fencing weapon for a civilian.
But then, i may tend to the civilian version, as the screw fixation may also represent a late age for tyhe sword ... like beg. XVIII century.
But these are all conjectures; no authority here

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Could that be a mark inh the ricasso, Jean-Luc ?


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Fernando

Here a close picture from the ricasso I don't think that it is a mark.

Best
CERJAK

[Jim McDougall]

I think Mark has good points on the character of the hilt with the manner of quillons attached to cup, and simplicity of the cup with raised ridge but no rompepuntas.
While this hilt has those characteristics suggesting colonial origin, the pommel seems of third quarter + classical 'urn' style. The knuckleguard screw into the pommel recalls English dragoon hilts of this period and earlier.

The blade seems to be of Solingen character of early 18th century versions of Aiala blades, and the 'anchor' seems to correspond somewhat to various examples on blades of these times. I believe that Germany began producing these rapier blades for Spanish colonial use in the 17th well into the 18th if I understand correctly.

With the combination of these, the more refined look of the grip, I would suggest this might be a Portuguese version of cuphilt for officers dress and of latter 18th.in present mounts using earlier Solingen Aiala blade. It seems that Portuguese cuphilts were with an almost colonial look were known if I recall earlier discussions correctly. The English associated elements bring to mind the various connections between Portugal and England in these times.

[ulfberth]

Well Cerjak,

It seems you got most of your answers, looking at the way the cup and the hilt is made, its form and symmetry I'm leaning towards 18th century....
Congratulations with this pure and original cup hilt rapier !

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think Mark has good points on the character of the hilt with the manner of quillons attached to cup, and simplicity of the cup with raised ridge but no rompepuntas.
While this hilt has those characteristics suggesting colonial origin, the pommel seems of third quarter + classical 'urn' style. The knuckleguard screw into the pommel recalls English dragoon hilts of this period and earlier.

The blade seems to be of Solingen character of early 18th century versions of Aiala blades, and the 'anchor' seems to correspond somewhat to various examples on blades of these times. I believe that Germany began producing these rapier blades for Spanish colonial use in the 17th well into the 18th if I understand correctly.

With the combination of these, the more refined look of the grip, I would suggest this might be a Portuguese version of cuphilt for officers dress and of latter 18th.in present mounts using earlier Solingen Aiala blade. It seems that Portuguese cuphilts were with an almost colonial look were known if I recall earlier discussions correctly. The English associated elements bring to mind the various connections between Portugal and England in these times.

Hello Jim

I was expected your opinion and I would like to thank you for your so well constructed analyse there is a last detail I would like to understand about the size who is about 120 cm in my eyes it is a lot for a dress sword it is difficult to wear it, may be you could explain me.
Best

Jean-Luc

[fernando]

You don't let this type of sword pend to the ground; its typical mode of scabbard holder together with your hand holding down the grip makes them go almost horizontal.
In any case, a sword with this length is not practical bor (military) battle but makes it good for (civilian/school) fencing; you intend to reach your adversary's body before he reaches yours.

[fernando]

Concerning this type of brazed quillons, pommel an cup looking Colonial, as i admited, i don't know. But that they make the Portuguese style, i make it certain.
Attached are two examples of such hilts, with and without knuckle guard screw, both with alegories to Portuguese Kings in their blades.


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[Cerjak]

Dear Fernando
Thank you for the pictures the first one is for me very similar from mine ( wooden handle and simple cup and quillons and same type of urn' style pommel only the knuckle guard screw .
Do you know from which period is the first hilt ?

Best

Jean-Luc

[fernando]

Allegedly XVIII century.

[Cerjak]

I would like to thank all of you ( Jim ,Fernando ,Mr ELEY & ulfberth, for your kind contribution on this thread.
I got all the explanation expected on this sword and I'm hope that those informations will be helpful for other collectors.

Cerjak

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jean-Luc,
A real nice find, 'de Aiala' blades seem to be popping up all over Here's a Tomas de Aiala rapier courtesy of the Wallace Collection, a bit of a different class from ours
My Regards,
Norman.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jean-Luc,
A real nice find, 'de Aiala' blades seem to be popping up all over Here's a Tomas de Aiala rapier courtesy of the Wallace Collection, a bit of a different class from ours
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman

Thank you for the picture.
It is only in Museum you could see so nice example and based on this picture I can understand why his name had been popping all over .
Best

Jean-Luc

[fernando]

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by fernando

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

Yes, ambiguity seems to be a byword when it comes to arms and armour!!!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

If I am not mistaken, a number of Milanese smiths worked in France, I think near Lyon but cannot recall exactly. Italians often used the Ayala name, much as did the German smiths into later times.

[fernando]

Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.

[kronckew]

i read somewhere (probably here on the forum) that at the height of the rapier 'age' they reached somewhat ridiculous lengths in civilian circumstances, mostly for fashion as the wearer was not likely to engage in a real duel.

i also read that a city where this was happening was so annoyed by the lengths gentlemen were going to, they banned blades over a yard long, and anyone caught with a longer blade on entry thru the gates would have it's excess broken off.

what i gather is a typical rapier scabbard (repro) and associated belting and fittings. the carrier at the balance hangs from a hook/eyelet on your left, and has a further strap that hooks to another eyelet on your right. the sword hangs almost horizontally, in balance. i assume the extra strap keeps it at a better angle & from flopping about hitting others & provoking duels. it does NOT go around your butt, but runs forward across your front as in the 2nd photo.

[fernando]

I wouldn't know about the fashion issue, but it was a vital advantage to have a longer reach than your adversary in a duel. There were indeed royal laws limiting the length of swords. King Dom João III, for one, allowed a maximum five and half palms ( some 120 cms.). Longer specimens were then called 'off mark', some of them reaching the seven palms.
Noteworthy the limit prescribed comprehended the whole sword; you could have a normal blade and a longer hilt, which would give the same effect.
One alternative to evade the law was to commission 'extendable' swords; you would go around with a legal weapon and only stretched it for a duel.
As then Monarchs considered themselves above the law, there is no surprise that, in the arms inventory of King Dom Pedro II, inherited from his father Dom João IV, it was listed an item called "sword that grows".

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[kronckew]

key word i think being 'duel', an artificial rules bound form of lethal argument settling as opposed to actual melee battles between disciplined trained soldiers who need a sword capable of working at near and far ranges without getting stuck in an opponent due to over-penetration. military swords of the period were shorter, wider, and sharper, excepting possibly the nobility and officers who tended not to lead from the front. the ultimate rapier form, the smallsword was great for duels, but died out with the 18th century as they were not a good battle sword. the scots taught them that. george washinton i hear had a colchemarde smallsword but he carried a more practical spadroon or hanger in battle tho. doubt he ever used either to actually injure an opponent.

'rapier' is a term we now apply to similar weapons that like 'falcata' was not normally applied to by those who carried them in earnest. it's just a more convenient way of saying "long pointy stabby sword with a fancy loopy wire or cup) hand protector that doesn't cut very well but looks cool".

added:

there is also a practical limit on how long a blade you personally can carry & unsheath (and re-sheath), as well as a weight limit. most rapiers were 1.5 kilos-2kilos at most. much the same as earlier and later swords. you could of course carry a longer one on horseback, like an estoc - basically a backup lance.

found this elsewhere on a sword forum: probably what i was originally thinking of: the english wore rapiers much longer that the fashion in the rest of europe, thus the following.

As far as the Royal Proclamations go, the earliest is 1557, which stated;

“…from henceforth no person or persons, of what estate, or condition so ever he or they be, do use or weare by nyghte or by daye, not sell any sworde or rapier above the length of a yard and a halfe quarter in the blade at the most, not any buckler, with more pykes therein then one, and the same not to be sharpe, or above .ii ynches long, or of a broder syse then hath ben most commonly used within this Realme, nor use or weare any gauntlet, or vambrace, not any other weapon of defence, other than theyr common swordes, rapiers, daggers, and bucklers, according to thauncient usage”

This seems to have been roundly ignored, and on the 6th of May 1562 a further proclamation was made that;

“And where as an usage is crept in, contrary to fromer orders, of wearing of long Swordes, and Rapyers, sharpened in suche sort, as maye appeare the usage of them cannot tende to defence, whiche ought to be the very meanying of weearyng of weapons, in times of peace: but to murther, and evident death, when the same shalbe occupyed. Her Majesties pleasure is, that no man shall after .x dayes next following this Proclomation, weare any Sword, Rapier, or any weapon in theyr steade, passynge the length of one yard & halfe a quarter of blade, at the uttermost: neither any Dagger above the length of .xii inches in blade: neither any Buckler, with a sharpe point, or with any point above two ynches of length”

There does seem to have been serious, if not entirely consistent, efforts to enforce these statutes, and in 1580 Lord Talbot reported that;

“the French Imbasidore, Mounswer Mouiser, ridinge to take the ayer, in his returne came thowrowe Smithfield; and ther, at the bars, was steayed by thos offisers that sitteth to cut sourds, by reason his raper was longer than the statute: He was in a great feaurie, and dreawe his raper; in the meane season my Lord Henry Seamore cam, and so stayed the mattr”.

Given Silver’s comments, by 1599 they seem to have given up trying.

spelling (and grammar) was an individual thing back then - no dictionaries of standardized spellings till the 17th c... spelling tests - another thing we can blame the english for.

(the 'legal limit was thus 40.5 inches of blade)

[fernando]

After measure conversions, conclusion is that both nations allowed an equivalent sword length ... let alone the Portuguese preventing foul play with the hilt size.
Here attached the first part of Dom João III law published in 1539, where can be read the part: quality and condition that be do not bring in my realms and estates sword longer than five palms of ell: entring in them the grip and the pommel

Also here attached a high quality seven palm sword from the beg. XVII century and a rare example of a stretchable sword, both in legal and ilegal attitude. It is dated around 1640 and has an inscription VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL.
(both belonging in the collection of Rainer Daehnhardt)

The thesis that too long swords are implausible because they can not be unsheathed and re-sheathed has also been discussed here but, if a trouble maker is decided to go exhibit his point of view carrying with him his advantage, that will not be an obstacle; he simply has to go for it with a naked sword, thus not needing to take along his page to unsheath it for him. Ethics and aestethics don't count much in such occasions.

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[kronckew]

if you can parry and close with him a bit inside his point, he's dead. unless he has a parrying (main gauche) dagger on his off hand and you get TOO close. if you also have a left handed dagger, it turns into a nasty knife fight.

i got a good smack from my epee teacher in college when my practice opponent made a mistook and his blade was grabable with my left, so i did. i poked him with mine a few times while the instructor, a rather aged hungarian about 5 ft 2 in. tall and 80-something got into range and gave me a good one on the butt with his fencing sabre. it's apparently against the rules so is half-swording.ah, well... (he apparently got jumped by a few thugs one night on the subway going home thru the bronx in NYC. bad move. he put three in the hospital with his cane, he was small but all muscle and fast when he wanted to be.)

one of my favourite series was 'sharpe', i recall in the 'waterloo' episode one british cavalry officer commenting on french lancers that 'once you get past the point it's like killing rabbits'.

a similar instance early in ww1 saw a rare engagement between a british cavalry unit with swords and a similar sized german lancer unit actually charged each other. the brits had little trouble doing the rabbit thing and the german force retreated. the brits tried to cut them off but ran into a farmer's barbed wire fence and had to halt. a foreboding of things to come. one, if not the last, f the few actual cavalry engagements before the trenches and concertina'd barbed wire stopped all that noble stuff.

ps. - re the extensible sword, i had a vision of a few rubber bands between the hilt and the guard, you could hold the guard in your right hand and pull back on the hilt with the left, aim & let go. just don't miss

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~I spoted a very interesting website on the subject of these swords from the highly specialised metalurgical and scientific viewpoint on http://www.academia.edu/858988/Metal..._rapier_blades

There is an excellent section on blades with the correct blademarks but which are actually not of that maker...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~I spoted a very interesting website on the subject of these swords from the highly specialised metalurgical and scientific viewpoint on http://www.academia.edu/858988/Metal..._rapier_blades

There is an excellent section on blades with the correct blademarks but which are actually not of that maker.....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kronckew]

interesting article, thanks.

the use of different steels and iron in different areas of the blade and the conclusion that some 'toledo' marked blades were actually made in solingen was interesting too.

sadly, i was looking thru a new catalogue from a spanish supplier and they are now proudly listing a spanish cup hilt rapier with a toledo stainless steel blade. how far the mighty have fallen.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... sadly, i was looking thru a new catalogue from a spanish supplier and they are now proudly listing a spanish cup hilt rapier with a toledo stainless steel blade. how far the mighty have fallen.

Much to the taste of those fans of replicas

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.

Thank you Nando!!! I had missed your response as I was caught up in the fascinating detour on fencing rules on blades etc , pretty intriguing to see how much regulation there really was concerning these swords.
Indeed, it does seem the Ayala name did become a sort of trademark as discussed with Andrea Ferara, Sahagum and others.
I wish we had as much recoded data on the use of these names and marks as we seem to have on all these regulations on lengths etc.

Ibrahiim, thank you for spotting this fascinating site you linked! You are always amazing finding these outstanding online resources!


All best regards,
Jim