Borneo ?? Sumatra ??

[Dajak]

Is this Item from Borneo or from Sumatra

[CharlesS]

This is a toughie. The braided hilt wire seems to say Borneo, but the blade says Sumatra.

Very interesting piece.

[VVV]

Ben,

Could you please also show us a close up of the blade?
At first glance the hilt and blade looks very Aceh-region, but sometimes it's also found in Jambi as well as in South Borneo.
In Borneo usually the bud is at a 90 degrees angle instead.
Also the lower part of the handle usually is round in Aceh, not octagonal, as well as in Aceh it often has more carvings.
The blade, from a distance, doesn't look like the ones found in Borneo among the Malays at the coast.
But neither does it look like the regular blade combo with this kind of hilt in Aceh (Peudeung).
But the braiding, as Charles noticed, looks very Borneo.

Another alternative is Jambi.
I noticed that this kind of hilt sometimes is found there, less carved and combined with other kind of blades than in Aceh (the Peudeung shape).
But I only have a few reference pictures of this.

Tricky piece.

Michael

[Ian]

Ben:

I like very much the clean looks and lines of this sword.

I will be interested in hearing where it comes from because I used to have another similar sword several years ago (no pictures unfortunately) that also had a braided wire handle. Never quite sure where it came from either -- thought it was Sumatran but could have been from S. Borneo.

Cheers,

Ian.

[Dajak]

Hi if we look in the data base off the museums off the Netherlands
this piece is from Borneo

There is also a picture in Quer Durch Borneo that has a sword with an handle like this

The brass wire we see only in Borneo on the Hilt never in Sumatra

blade form we see on other Islands off Indonesia

It is always difficult to say if 2 Islands close together

Michael wich part off the blade you wanna close up

[Rick]

Here is a similar wire braid (without the twist) on a kris .
Sulu ?
Maguindanao?

[Dajak]

Hi Rick that is an nice could be used in North Borneo
I have an murut sword from North Borneo whit an moro Binding

[Dajak]

Murut

[Rick]

I tell you Dajak this Borneo/Sulu/Mindanao Moro line seems very blurred.
In a lot of ways the blade on the subject piece of this thread reminds me of a Bangkung.

Sometimes I wonder if we will ever be able to sort it all out .

[Ian]

Rick:

IIRC bangkung is a Sulawesi term, at least that is how it appears to be characterized in v. Zonneveld. The blade form, however, is quite widespread -- from Sumatra to Borneo to Mindanao, as well as Sulawesi. In the Philippines, Cato states that the bangkung is mainly a weapon of the Yakan on Basilan. However, this blade form is seen quite commonly on Lumad swords of the Bagobo/Kaolu, while the ginunting of Negros Occidental (Visayas) also has some similarity to a bangkung.

Ian

[Dajak]

Hi Ian

For us from overseas in the Netherlands we call all the Philipinne krissen Sundang moro krissen or moro kris
sorry for that


Don t keep the Zonneveld book to much as a reference on Borneo Items because he made a few mistakes in it that I already discussed with him .

HE DID PUT WITH THE JIMPULS AN BLADE THAT IS NOT AN JIMPUL .
I ASK HIM WHY YOU DO THIS HIS ;

...... ANSWER WAS I COULD NOT FIND ANY DOCUMENTATION ON THIS TYPE OFF SWORD ........

So in my opinnion do things like this is wrong .

The problem with this now that some one with an blade form like pic 165 on page 57 thinks he have an Jimpul.




regards Ben

[VVV]

I disagree a bit on some things that Ben brings up even if I agree with his other statements.
First I don't think that the parang from Nieuwenhuis is that close in style (first picture attached).
Then I don't agree that f.i. searching the Leiden archives clearly proves that this sword is from Borneo? I have attached two pictures, the first collected on Borneo and the second in Jambi.
There was a lot of migration in this region. If we can agree on that this isn't a Dayak sword, but Malay, then it could either have been brought to Borneo when somebody from Sumatra moved to Borneo?
I assume that when people moved around between the islands they brought with them their weapons?
Or it could have been produced in Borneo by a blademaker who had moved from Sumatra to Borneo?
Does that make it a Borneo sword???
Is it the style or where it was produced that decides the origin?
Is a balisong made by a Filipino in LA, in a traditional Filipino style, an American knife?
The braiding I also think was made on Borneo. Depending on the scenarios it could have been made later or when produced.

Michael

PS Ben, I wanted to see the part of the blade closest to the tip.

[Dajak]

Hi Michael I agree that it is not an Dayak sword but
with a lot off things that produced in Borneo like the hilt off The batak look like weapons was produced in Brunei the blade mostly from european swords

The same with the parang nabur made in malaysia but also on Borneo

[Dajak]

Sorry forgot to send it

[VVV]

Thanks Ben,

Let's save the Batak Piso Podang vs Dayak Pedang and the origin of the Parang Nabur for another thread.

Michael

[Dajak]

Ok Michael

[VVV]

Here is an unusual Mandau hilt variation that I think was influenced by the sword style we discussed?

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael this is an parang with mixed up style (but an very nice old one) not an mandau it does not have the classic mandau form
it has only an krowit that make it not an mandau but always difficult with these weapons to put an classification on it
I have an straight parang nabur that is pictured in Zonnevelds Book wit an krowit

Here some pics about an latok sadap and an very old style Jimpul with an Latok type handle .

I have also an Dajak sword that has parang Latok type off handle that was taken in 1820 by an british officer you see that on your visit

The handle s like this was the early form off handle they use

[Dajak]

Here the pics

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

Yes, I agree that my parang does not follow the mandau classification strictly.
Maybe better to call it a Dayak parang inspired by the Malay swords like yours?
Both the blades you show are very interesting variations. The heavy Jimpul with Latok resembling handle is unique as far as I know.
On the 1820 Dayak sword you showed me I think it's a Parang Pedang.

Michael

[VVV]

Something strange with the picture examples from Borneo and Jambi above that are alternating places?
Maybe somebody I forgot to treat, as in trick or treat?
The one with 90 degrees bud is Borneo and the one with more straight bud at the top is Jambi.

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael I think not Dayak parang but Borneo parang is the best to say
because it is difficult to say wich group this use .
Not all the people off Borneo are called Dayak.
And don t forget the Malay people had a lot influence in Sarawak but also chinese.

That is what it make s difficult.


Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

Not sure which parang you are referring to?
On my parang I think it's one of the Dayak tribes, based on the blade.
On your Parang Pedang it's probably either "pure" Malay or Melanau.
For sure there are, and was, a lot of different influences and groups of people on Borneo.

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael yes your parang is Dayak that is why I put the latok pic on
I was also thinking it maybe an blade form between Latok and mandau

I did mean my parang Borneo parang.

the parang pedang a bring back from 1820 I think come s from North borneo
because ut have the brass collar like the pakayuns but also difficult
I don t think it is malay the blade form and size I
never see at malay weapons .
It is more pakayun style blade



Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

Could you post some pictures of the Parang Pedang 1820?
I don't remember all the details of it.

Michael

[Dajak]

I gonna send it private to you

Ben

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Is this Item from Borneo or from Sumatra

Hi Ben,

this type of blade is quite common in Banjar (South Borneo)
I've also seen a mandau with this type of blade and I have a sword from Banjar with this type of blade.
pics will come later.

[Dajak]

Hi Arjan thanks I am waiting for the pics

Did you see something like it in the Leiden Museum ???


Ben

[Battara]

On some of these examples and others I have noticed that the dots and inlays are brass on the blades. Is this a later 19th-20thc motif or also earlier?

[Dajak]

Hi no it depends on the area where the sword is coming from


Ben