AFRICAN BOWIE KNIFE ?

Royston · 21st August 2010, 02:20 PM

A recent aquisition which came in with some Khukri's.

Not seen anything like this before.
Silver and ivory pommel.
Brass crossguard
Blade looks like an American " Case " combat knife, but is much thicker than the couple that I have seen.
Scabbard is decorated rawhide
Belt appears to be of local manufacture as does the brass buckle.

Any suggestions as to origin ??

Thanks
Roy

katana · 21st August 2010, 02:40 PM

The sheath and hilt are reminicent of the Somalian BILLAO / Afar tribe GILLE.
Do you think the blade is locally made ? Millitary blades are often clearly marked......if the blade has age could have been a private purchase. I'm wondering ...with the conflict in North Africa during WW2....whether the blade originated from that time

I have seen a number of military knives/machetes/bayonets that have been 'Africanised'.

Regards David

KuKulzA28 · 21st August 2010, 04:40 PM

blade looks like it could have been a salvaged and shaped machete blade, there's some with clip-points and others with rounded tips that can be easily made into clip points.

katana · 21st August 2010, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

blade looks like it could have been a salvaged and shaped machete blade, there's some with clip-points and others with rounded tips that can be easily made into clip points.

You are probably right.... re-profiled 'trade' machete blades are common in Africa....some even made into short swords.

laEspadaAncha · 21st August 2010, 06:18 PM

The blade is typical of the bowie-profile NO. 18 Machete designed in 1934 as a "bailout" knife for Army Air Corps personnel stationed in tropical areas. The knife was made by Case, Collins, Kinfolks, and Western, and was issued during WWII (until '42) and was adapted by the 2nd Raider Battalion of the USMC (their operations were confined to the Pacific Theater).

The original had a 9 3/8-inch / 23.8 cm blade, and all were tang-stamped on the ricasso or the blade by the manufacturer. I'm guessing your example isn't quite as long from its appearance in the photos...

This could indicate either a re-worked blade or (more likely) one of the (tens if not hundreds of) thousands of examples that have come out of Pakistan in the last 40-or-so years that emulate the original. If the spine seems overly thick, then in my opinion the smart money is on the blade being of Pakistani origin.

Royston · 22nd August 2010, 12:50 PM

Thanks everyone.

David, I see what you mean about the Billao, it does look the same apart from the blade. I was not familiar with these before.

LaEspada / Kukulz, I had not thought of a machete but looking at it now I think you are probably correct. Where from though ? I doubt if it is particularly old so the blade could well be a more recent Pakistani item. There are no markings on it that I can see.

Does anyone know if the silverwork on the pommel is local ?

regards
Roy

Gavin Nugent · 22nd August 2010, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

Does anyone know if the silverwork on the pommel is local ?

regards
Roy

Hi Royston,

If by local you mean original and native to the piece, yes it is.

Gav

KuKulzA28 · 22nd August 2010, 03:14 PM

Collins was a very popular machete brand during that time. EspadaAncha has been pretty thorough about explaining it. I don't know how old Martindale is, but their machetes are very popular in Africa today, perhaps it was a cut down martindale... hard to say

Tim Simmons · 22nd August 2010, 06:07 PM

Pictures from "British and commonwealth military knives, Ron Flook" he states ww2 Indian made knife based on the American V-44 what ever that is. Originally designed by the Americans as aircrew survival knives. Did Indian army troops serve in British Somalia?

PS. yes they did.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/t...a1126360.shtml

laEspadaAncha · 22nd August 2010, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Pictures from "British and commonwealth military knives, Ron Flook" he states ww2 Indian made knife based on the American V-44 what ever that is. Originally designed by the Americans as aircrew survival knives. Did Indian army troops serve in British Somalia?

PS. yes they did.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/t...a1126360.shtml

Good find, Tim...

One footnote - the V-44 was in actuality a blunt-tip machete that had a remarkably appearance different from the No. 18, but over time the label was misappropriated to the No. 18 machete within the collector community and for whatever reason has stuck. You'll more often than not find the MilSpec No. 18's labeled as "V-44"s at knife/gun shows, as that's the name many collectors identify with them.

Here's a picture of an actual V-44 (which was Case's pattern number):

laEspadaAncha · 22nd August 2010, 07:39 PM

One other note: WWII-era Indian copies would be consistent with my earlier suggested attribution, as until 1947, Pakistan was a part of India!

Tim Simmons · 22nd August 2010, 07:53 PM

Cool!!!!

Even the publishing top brass can learn a thing or two here.

katana · 22nd August 2010, 08:10 PM

Hi Roy,
how thick is the spine ?

Regards David

21st August 2010, 02:20 PM	#1
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	AFRICAN BOWIE KNIFE ? A recent aquisition which came in with some Khukri's. Not seen anything like this before. Silver and ivory pommel. Brass crossguard Blade looks like an American " Case " combat knife, but is much thicker than the couple that I have seen. Scabbard is decorated rawhide Belt appears to be of local manufacture as does the brass buckle. Any suggestions as to origin ?? Thanks Roy Attached Images

22nd August 2010, 06:07 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Pictures from "British and commonwealth military knives, Ron Flook" he states ww2 Indian made knife based on the American V-44 what ever that is. Originally designed by the Americans as aircrew survival knives. Did Indian army troops serve in British Somalia? PS. yes they did. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/t...a1126360.shtml Attached Images

21st August 2010, 02:40 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The sheath and hilt are reminicent of the Somalian BILLAO / Afar tribe GILLE. Do you think the blade is locally made ? Millitary blades are often clearly marked......if the blade has age could have been a private purchase. I'm wondering ...with the conflict in North Africa during WW2....whether the blade originated from that time I have seen a number of military knives/machetes/bayonets that have been 'Africanised'. Regards David

21st August 2010, 04:40 PM	#3
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	blade looks like it could have been a salvaged and shaped machete blade, there's some with clip-points and others with rounded tips that can be easily made into clip points.

21st August 2010, 06:18 PM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	The blade is typical of the bowie-profile NO. 18 Machete designed in 1934 as a "bailout" knife for Army Air Corps personnel stationed in tropical areas. The knife was made by Case, Collins, Kinfolks, and Western, and was issued during WWII (until '42) and was adapted by the 2nd Raider Battalion of the USMC (their operations were confined to the Pacific Theater). The original had a 9 3/8-inch / 23.8 cm blade, and all were tang-stamped on the ricasso or the blade by the manufacturer. I'm guessing your example isn't quite as long from its appearance in the photos... This could indicate either a re-worked blade or (more likely) one of the (tens if not hundreds of) thousands of examples that have come out of Pakistan in the last 40-or-so years that emulate the original. If the spine seems overly thick, then in my opinion the smart money is on the blade being of Pakistani origin.

22nd August 2010, 12:50 PM	#6
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Thanks everyone. David, I see what you mean about the Billao, it does look the same apart from the blade. I was not familiar with these before. LaEspada / Kukulz, I had not thought of a machete but looking at it now I think you are probably correct. Where from though ? I doubt if it is particularly old so the blade could well be a more recent Pakistani item. There are no markings on it that I can see. Does anyone know if the silverwork on the pommel is local ? regards Roy

22nd August 2010, 03:14 PM	#8
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Collins was a very popular machete brand during that time. EspadaAncha has been pretty thorough about explaining it. I don't know how old Martindale is, but their machetes are very popular in Africa today, perhaps it was a cut down martindale... hard to say

22nd August 2010, 07:39 PM	#11
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	One other note: WWII-era Indian copies would be consistent with my earlier suggested attribution, as until 1947, Pakistan was a part of India!

22nd August 2010, 07:53 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Cool!!!! Even the publishing top brass can learn a thing or two here.

22nd August 2010, 08:10 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Roy, how thick is the spine ? Regards David