Are these historical swords or tourist traps?

[ebuhamza135]

I would like to ask wether these swords that I found on some auction websites are they actual historical swords used in history, or tourist traps?

[Sajen]

Make sure that they are not actually for sale!

[Ian]

I echo Sajen's concern abut these being currently for sale--discussion of items presently for sale is not permitted here (see forum rules at the top of the forum directory page).

I don't recognize these specific items (Islamic/Ottoman swords are not my main interest), but it may help discussion if you indicated what they were advertised as being. Both look well made items, and the second one has a very nice old sheath. I doubt that these are cheap knock offs for tourists, although each could be primarily "decorative" in nature. They do have a certain "Arabian Nights" feel and might be considered by Europeans as "scimitars."

P.S. A little research online.
The first one was sold by Sofe Design Auctions on June 21, 2019.

Highly Unusual 19th C. Islamic Ottoman Turkish Naval Short Sword with UNIQUE in-curved Blade, Signed & Dated. Total length (inside scabbard if present): 20", Blade length: 14 1/2".

[ebuhamza135]

Originally Posted by Ian

P.S. A little research online.
The first one was sold by Sofe Design Auctions on June 21, 2019.

So after you researched it, do you think was it actually used for military or just decorational?

[Ian]

I think they were made as weapons and not for sale to those who travel. The one in the elaborate metal sheath may have been more for "show" than combat.

Regards,

Ian

[Rafngard]

Here's an interesting Luzon example of the same kind of blade shape that recently came to live with me.

It is absolutely the heaviest Luzon blade I've ever handled.

Have fun,
Leif

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by ebuhamza135

I would like to ask wether these swords that I found on some auction websites are they actual historical swords used in history, or tourist traps?

These type of "fantasy" oriental style weapons are frequently french made or comming from french colonies in North Africa. They are old and typically have a functional edge.
They were made as curiosities.
Some were made for officers , especially naval officers to wear in place of their dirks in the British and French navies. You can see some very curved dirks with shamshir style handles, velvet sheaths and eastern styles guards and decoration about too
You can also see french made "belly dancing swords" from those days that may be quite robust looking.
Generally these are period fantasy weapons.

People made fantasy weapons then as we do now.
Just like the English loved to make fantasy mediaeval swords in the 19th century.
The french liked to make fantasy Roman, greek, chinese and middle eastern weapons.
I'd guess mostly these were hung on walls or given as interesting gifts

[Ian]

Is the blade mark on the example without a scabbard meant to be a tughra?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ian

Is the blade mark on the example without a scabbard meant to be a tughra?

Sure looks like one,as far as I know nobody put these on souvenir 'weapons'.
These kinds of weapons (Burton, 1884) are the types that became fancifully interpreted as the nebulous 'scimitar' of Victorian romanticism, which of course also prevailed in France (as noted by Ausjulius).The French were intrigued by 'exotic' flair and added colorful units such as pandours, zouaves etc. into their military, and officers favored their weapons...which brought about the notable 'mameluke' sabers, which came from the Egyptian campaigns c. 1800. It does not seem unreasonable that the French officers would wear serviceable weapons as seen with native people in their colonies.

The inverted clip point was IMO part of the widened point which was primarily to add weight to the energy of the cut, and became well known with many machete forms (many seen in the Cuban 'guanabacoa').

[Ian]

Thanks Jim. I've attached a larger picture of the tughra, which also has a date below it. I can read 127"?" which translates into some time in the mid 1850s to mid-1860s (the last number is indistinct). A mid-19th C time frame seems to fit with the Ottoman attribution and much of what has been discussed so far.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks Jim. I've attached a larger picture of the tughra, which also has a date below it. I can read 127"?" which translates into some time in the mid 1850s to mid-1860s (the last number is indistinct). A mid-19th C time frame seems to fit with the Ottoman attribution and much of what has been discussed so far.


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Thank you for adding the close up Ian! While I am no authority on Islamic arms I have always found them fascinating, and the tughra is one of the elements of Ottoman weapons most intriguing. It seems that would be a great subject for a thread, with weapons bearing these on the blades and attribution.

[ausjulius]

i guess int his category of period fantasy weapons or souvenir weapons we can add the Persian made and indian made of this type, zulfiker swords, the etched bladed swords with iron handles and some other items. these were all souvenirs for tourists of the day

[Ian]

I'm not sure we can classify these two items as cheap knock offs or purely aimed at tourists. Perhaps they are more like pieces made for re-enactors today or for collectors of oriental art and artifacts.