Afghan Tabarzin

[kronckew]

I've seen a number of these Afghanistan 'bring-back' axes. Most with some perforations and some brass or copper bands. Almost all had a sting in the tail, a stiletto spike screwed into the butt.

This one seems more upmarket/lavish perforations, dotted circles, brass (gold?), copper inlays, bands, etc. a brass keeper at the top of the haft, and a steel butt with no spike. Haft appears to be some rather grainless wood, and has brass or gold wire decoration every few inches. Axe is sharp, tight.
32" long butt to top keeper. head is 4" edge, 5.25" edge to the back of the octagonal socket. Steel socket insert is also pinned.


Someone mentioned these were an afghan equivalent of the Polish/Hungarian mountain axes (ciupaga/fokos).



Any coments appreciated.
Thanks.

[RobT]

kronckew,

I have two of these axes (not as nice as yours) and I wonder if they weren’t made for the native population rather than for the bring back market. The pierced and inlaid heads appear to require a good bit more time and effort than is typically lavished on tourist items. I realize that they wouldn’t stand up to field use but they would be entirely adequate as “Sunday go to meetin’” versions meant to serve as a side arm as well as a necessary symbolic accoutrement for a fully enfranchised male member of the culture.
In any event, I have an axe head stamped “INDIA” (see attached) which is identical in size (without the haft eye) and profile to the type in question but the head of my axe is not pierced and has a haft eye instead of the relatively flimsy screw-on eye that found on most of the pierced versions. As can be seen by the dimensions below, the head is far thicker than any of the pierced versions and the eye is sized to accommodate a hefty haft. It is certainly made for heavy use.
Dimensions:
Length of bit (from top to bottom), about 5” (12.7cm)
Size of head (excluding the haft eye), about 4.75” (12.065cm)
Overall size of head (including haft eye), about 6.75” (15.24cm)
Head thickness (just before haft eye), about 7/16” (1.111cm) with distal taper (at start of edge grind) to about 1/8” (3.175mm)
Haft eye, about 1-7/8” long by 1.25” wide (4.76cm x 3.175cm)

Sincerely,
RobT

[kronckew]

Yes, very similar in shape, I suspect the more mundane undecorated ones are indeed for locals & every day use, while the pierced and decorated ones are for war, status, and parade use. The ones with the screw on heads are likely for display only, a 'feature' allowing they to be packed easier for shipping home.

[RobT]

kronckew,

The use of shields and or chain mail was common in the sub-continent. I’ve not seen any axe head of the pierced variety that I believed robust enough to stand up to being used against such defenses or to have sufficient heft to deal an effective blow against same. Traditional Persian and Indo-Persian tabor zin are much heavier than any of these style axe heads (even my made in India one). Not only are the traditional tabor zin stout enough to survive hitting armor, they have enough gravitas to defeat it.
I don’t think the screw-tops should be relegated to wall hanger status for two reasons. One, cutting screw threads seems like more work than would be expended on a tourist/bring back item. Two, the construction appears to be sufficient for civilian altercations because the combatants wouldn’t be using shields or armor. If greater strength were deemed necessary, the screw-top heads could be more firmly affixed by applying lathi or some other vegetable epoxy to the threads.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by RobT

kronckew,

I have two of these axes (not as nice as yours) and I wonder if they weren’t made for the native population rather than for the bring back market. The pierced and inlaid heads appear to require a good bit more time and effort than is typically lavished on tourist items. I realize that they wouldn’t stand up to field use but they would be entirely adequate as “Sunday go to meetin’” versions meant to serve as a side arm as well as a necessary symbolic accoutrement for a fully enfranchised male member of the culture.
In any event, I have an axe head stamped “INDIA” (see attached) which is identical in size (without the haft eye) and profile to the type in question but the head of my axe is not pierced and has a haft eye instead of the relatively flimsy screw-on eye that found on most of the pierced versions. As can be seen by the dimensions below, the head is far thicker than any of the pierced versions and the eye is sized to accommodate a hefty haft. It is certainly made for heavy use.

Do you believe this Indian axehead has any connection to the Afghan example, or could it just be a coincidence in terms of design?

[RobT]

Sakalord 364,

Aside from its thickness and haft eye, my “India” stamped axe head is a virtually exact overlay for the two pierced axe heads that I have. The Pashtun people are present in large numbers in Pakistan as well as in India (known as Pathans in Hindustani) so I would suppose that the type of axe head in question is commonly found in all three countries. Consider also that my blade is stamped “India” which indicates manufacture in relatively large quantities for export as well as for domestic consumption. I believe all evidence points toward my axe head being a working tool version of the more fancy pierced type.

Sincerely,
RobT

[C4RL]

Put "viking axe head" into Google and you can see as many heads as you like the same shape as the Indian stamped one.
I'm not making any judgement about the origins of any head being discussed here as I don't know, I'm just pointing out it's by no means a shape unique to one country/culture.

The first thing that sprang to my mind seeing the O.Ps images was "Fokos" before reading it in the text.

[RobT]

C4RL,

I decided to take a look for myself so I did a google search using “viking axe head” as you suggested. While I did find some repros that matched the profile of the axe heads in this thread, the ones actually from the viking era didn’t match. I also did a search using “antique viking axe head” and got the same result. The closest match I found was the skeg axe but the lower projection (the skeg [beard in old Norse]) is far narrower where it meets the body of the head, comes to a squared off end, and intersects the head far more abruptly than does the Pashtun axe lower projection.
I have two Fokos (Ciupaga in Polish) and they look nothing like the Pashtun axes so I did a google search but it came up negative for a Pashtun look alike.
I invite all interested parties to duplicate my efforts and provide a link to any antique axe that duplicates the size and profile of the Pashtun axe head.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by RobT

C4RL,

I decided to take a look for myself so I did a google search using “viking axe head” as you suggested. While I did find some repros that matched the profile of the axe heads in this thread, the ones actually from the viking era didn’t match. I also did a search using “antique viking axe head” and got the same result. The closest match I found was the skeg axe but the lower projection (the skeg [beard in old Norse]) is far narrower where it meets the body of the head, comes to a squared off end, and intersects the head far more abruptly than does the Pashtun axe lower projection.
I have two Fokos (Ciupaga in Polish) and they look nothing like the Pashtun axes so I did a google search but it came up negative for a Pashtun look alike.
I invite all interested parties to duplicate my efforts and provide a link to any antique axe that duplicates the size and profile of the Pashtun axe head.

Sincerely,
RobT

https://historical-weapons.com/the-b...f-afghanistan/

Here is a valuable article written by our fellow forum member, that examines all of the various types of ceremonial axe heads used in Afghanistan. These axes were symbols of power likely owned by the elder of the tribe or village, this is probably a centuries old tradition and as expected the shape of the axehead evolved over time.

[C4RL]

So just to make sure I understand this, the head you own in the image stamped India is an antique? And it is "Pashtun"?
And anything else that looks like it is a reproduction?

The other thing I don't really get is how your Indian stamped head bares any resemblance at all to the O.Ps, stories & theories aside.

This image was found quickly. Not exact but there are literally thousands of slightly different head shapes, I'm not sure what's the point of your challenge.

[RobT]

C4RL,

I believe that it is important that I address your last sentence first. I issued no challenge. Rather, I reported my findings and invited all interested parties to duplicate my efforts in order to support or refute what I had found.
I am sorry that you misapprehended my post and thought I meant my “INDIA” axe was an antique. If you reread my post I believe you will find that I never said that it was an antique. As a matter of fact, I don’t believe it is but I do believe its profile is one that has been used in different areas of the subcontinent for a good while. My reason for specifying antique for the viking, fokos, and ciupaga examples is as follows. Actual viking axes are all antique. What I meant was that I wanted to see a real viking axe with a profile that matched the OP’s axe profile not some modern blacksmith’s vaguely similar take on the real thing. I wished for this same stricture to be applied to the fokos and ciupaga. I want to see old, traditional forms of fokos and ciupaga that match the OP’s axe profile, not some modern pastiche.
As for my "INDIA" axe head being Pashtun, again I must say that I am sorry that you mistook what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that my axe head was Pashtun. Actually, I think that it is just as likely not. Frankly, I don’t know for sure that the pierced axes are Pashtun either (although others have stated quite positively that they are). All I meant was that my axe head profile closely matched the profile of the OP’s pierced axe head and that my axe head was made for that same market. That market could have been exclusively Pashtun, or another ethnic group entirely, or a number of different ethnic groups (including or excluding Pashtun) that use that size and shape axe head. Likewise, the maker of my axe head could be a member of any number of ethnic groups.
You wrote, “The other thing I don’t really get is how your Indian stamped head bares any resemblance at all to the O.P’s, stories & theories aside.” Well, the OP responded to my initial post with, “Yes, very similar in shape, I suspect the more mundane undecorated ones are indeed for locals & every day use, while the pierced and decorated ones are for war, status and parade use.” I am posting pictures of my two pierced axe heads placed edge to edge with my un-pierced one. To me, my pierced heads look very similar to the OP’s pierced head and, in turn, my un-pierced head looks very similar in profile to all three pierced heads. To me, the examples you posted don’t share the same similarity. If you disagree, then you and I are not seeing the same thing and all further discussion about the alleged similarity is pointless.

Sincerely,
RobT

[C4RL]

OK. So a similar shape but nothing else.

This is an old image of three large French axes I have, the one on the left especially must share the same heritage I guess.

[RobT]

C4RL,

Thanks for posting your three examples. This was what I was looking for when I asked other forum members to post relevant photos. To me, all three of the heads you show bear a remarkable resemblance to the pierced axes posted on this thread (as well as to my un-pierced one). As you note, the leftmost one in your post is the closest match. Frankly, I would say close enough to be exact (the eye shape differs but I think that is irrelevant). There appears to be a ruler in the photo but the gradations are illegible. Judging by the relative size of the brick background, I’d say that the axe heads look roughly the same size as the other axe heads in this post. Could you provide some dimensions for the leftmost one to confirm this? Also, you state that, “This is an old image of three large French axes I have”. By that, do you mean that they were made in France or just found in France. How do you know? Are they stamped with country of origin or did you get them in France? It would really be funny if they were made in India for export to France or conversely, made in France for export to India.
The salient difference between my axe head and your axe is that mine is stamped “INDIA”, Sakalord364 asked, “Do you believe this Indian axehead has any connection to the Afghan example, or could it just be a coincidence in terms of design?” My response to his question mentioned the presence of Pashtun people in India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan (note that there are other ethnic groups that inhabit all three countries as well). My point was that the shape of the axe head was chosen because it is familiar to an ethnic group (or groups). It is far easier to sell a hand tool to someone if the buyer is used to the shape and style of the tool because no new ergonomics have to be learned and the user would also be visually comfortable with the form. The fact that my axe head is stamped “INDIA” indicates that at least some product was slated for export. Most probably to a nearby country but maybe even to France.

Sincerely,
RobT

[C4RL]

12" tall & 10" bit so it's huge.
Full story here in one of my threads (with images missing due to Photobuckets antics, I'm reinstating them slowly)- https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/...h-axe.1424530/

I don't for one minute believe there is any connection whatsoever between this head, your Indian head & the O.Ps axe head. Other than they are axes that share a shape.
There are millions of axe heads, being a similar shape is just .....well... a similar shape, nothing more (yes, we know there are historical styles & patterns, but these don't have common ancestry).

On the forum I linked to people post up found axes with expectations after seeing an image online that's "similar", most often it turns out to be something different. Have a look through the posts yourself.


~In fact, post up your images & theory there and see what others think. It's free.~


Middle one - hung on the wall in my old house.

[RobT]

C4RL,

Using the link you provided, I read through the discussion of your axe. Since, the profile of your axe head exactly matches the profile of the OP’s pierced axe head and my un-pierced “INDIA” axe head and that, given its script stamp (it would have been helpful if you had mentioned that), your axe head was undeniably made in Western Europe, the conclusion is inescapable that the same axe head form evolved independently in two (at least) very disparate places.
However, that in no way excludes the possibility that my un-pierced axe head is simply the working tool version of the pierced axe heads and that these heads (both pierced and un-pierced) represent a profile that is part of the material culture of a specific ethnic group (or groups) that live in a geographic area.
You have provided incontrovertible evidence that your position is correct but, adding the factor of geographical proximity to your premise logically dictates that my position is also likely to be correct. As the song goes, “There’s more than one answer to these questions pointing me in a crooked line
And the less I seek my source for some definitive
Closer I am to fine”.

Sincerely,
RobT

[C4RL]

We are all entitled to our own beliefs & theories, just not our own facts.

Regards, Carl.

[RobT]

C4RL,

I believe, if you reread all of my posts in this thread, you will find that all of my statements regarding the relationship of my axe head and the OP's axe are clearly stated as suppositions not facts. I was very, very careful about that.

Sincerely,
RobT

[C4RL]

Originally Posted by RobT

I believe all evidence points toward my axe head being a working tool version of the more fancy pierced type.

What evidence? I agree that there isn't any....

Like I say you can believe whatever want.

India (& Pakistan) turn out a huge amount of forged bladed items in styles from all over the world, often being sold on ebay and other places, it wouldn't suprise me if your Indian head was simply an Indian "Viking head"* repro.

But I'll drop it now, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
And apologies O.P as this has had very little to do with your question! ;-)

Regards, Carl.

* The general "slang" term for a head this style.

[Peter Hudson]

An example worth consideration is the Shihuh Axe of the Mussandam Peninsula off Northern Oman (also carried as a camel stick in the Wahiiba sands of Oman)...The weapon is called a Jerrs probably from the Persian Gerrs for mace. It is more of a badge of Office than a weapon although they say that the bigger format was used as an axe... The Jury is out on that issue... and may always be! However compare away and see http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ighlight=jerrs

Peter Hudson.

[kronckew]

My jerz, massandam axe in-hand for size comparison.
My Afghani perforated one is slightly bigger .

[Peter Hudson]

Reference;
A. Forum Library. The Mussandam Axe. Post 21. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ighlight=jerrs


Kronckew, Very nice...however I think what you have is the other variant from the Wahiiba in North Eastern Oman. This second type is a camel riders stick without which the camel is most reluctant to react to any instructions ... Where did you get it? Is the stick original to the axe head... I think so. That makes it a Wahiiba axe...called a Quddum on two counts...
1. The simple white coloured shaft ...and
2. The almost devoid decoration to the axehead.

Dont get me wrong... Wahiiba Quddum axes are almost identical and far less studied than Mussandam ones... My view is that they are linked and many years ago one style split away and created the other.

The great expert on Jerrs axes or as they are also known as Shihuh Axes or Jerrs...is the curator at Al Ain Museum ... Dr Waleed who did a thesis on them...Peter Hudson.