keris blade for comment.

[capt.smash]

Hi guys i just got this nice Bali blade .Its another nice blade fallen on hard times placed in poor dress and sold cheep[i cant resist a nice blade ] .Im asumeing its a bali blade cause its in bali dress and because of its size[40cm from tip to ganja]and high polish and also there is a one eyed demon/deity? engraved at the bottom.There is alot of engraveing around the bottom of the blade,although unfortunately some has worn away[i get the impression that it was once heavily corroded and then re-polished].Of interest to me is the ganja witch has the strange protrusions and after some scrubbing away the dirt and rust with a toothbrush in water i was delighted to find that the two either side of the peksi are infact very intricately chizeled animals[i cant capture them very well in picture but the detail is almost microscopic with individual hairs engraved to make the fur coat]the animal nearest the pecetan im quite sure is a cow and i cant quite make the other one out yet[it is alot more corroded] but im leaning towards a cat/tiger or monkey [more cleaning should hopefuly make it clearer].Can anyone tell me the significance of these animals?there seems to be a ceremonial feel to it.Any comments and corrections welcome.
Sorry about pic quality my camera is rubbish

[capt.smash]

closer inspection reveals that the second animal is almost certainly a tiger and they both apear to be partly submerged in flowing water/river..the nodules near the aring seem to be rocks with water flowing around them.

[Henk]

What a shame that this blade is mounted in such a cheap tourist dress.

It is balinese and once it certainly was dressed in a smashing scabbard with a fine ukiran. Unfortunately the mendak is also missing.

In my opinion this is a very good blade. It should be cleaned properly with lime juice and re-etched with arsenic. The figures on the gandja were certainly gilded and the engravings once were gilded too.

Maybe you should spend some money on this fellow to bring it back in the way it once appeared. Maybe Adni of the Malay Art Gallery can give you some advise. If you have the opportunity to restore it you will have a very fine balinese or lombok keris. I think this one is the effort worth.

[capt.smash]

Thanks Henk thanks for the reply yeah its a great shame about the dress but for me the blade is the most important part...this is the second good quality bali blade that i have got in almost identical dress and like the last this is one for keeps and restoration. Do you have any ideahs on the significance of the animals ?mabe a makers marks or perhaps something to do with a hindu fable or something they are a lovely detail

[Rick]

Nah ,
Made in Milwaukee .

Seriously though capt. , thanks for showing me something I have never before seen in a Bali blade .
The Tiger and the Bull are symbols of bravery , no ?

Very interesting features .

[Henk]

To be honest I really don't know what the meaning is of those symbols on the keris. Ricks remark is a posibility. I've seen such a keris in good condition in a very serious collection. I was even allowed to keep it in my hands. The only thing I could do at that moment was to put up a face like this, and enjoying a marvelous keris.

I always thought that such a keris was made for a wealthy person who could afford a keris with gold ornaments. The keris I mentioned had a dress of gold and ivory, that is pointing in such a direction. Symbols of power and strength, reflecting the position of the owner.

[capt.smash]

"made in Milwaukee" LOL

[Rick]

This is probably the antithesis of critical thinking but ,

While I agree that this blade most likely belonged to a higher status person I also have read , on this forum IIRC (take it for what you will) , that such adornments were often awarded by the sultan for an outstanding act of bravery on the part of one of his minions .

Silly romantic stuff probably but it would seem a particularly appropriate reward and possibly even fits Ruel's fashion criteria .

Always remember , you read it on the internet .

[Henk]

In the book by Tammens I found something about this.

Applying gold on keris blades started in the 17th century. On the ganja of many kerisses gold figures have been applied. Mostly two animals, the macan (tiger) and the gajah (elephant) symbols for the two empires Mataram and Modjopahit and sometimes the banteng (wild cow) as a symbol of strength.
It is said that the well known Sultan Agung took the initiative in applying these golden ornaments, to honour those kerisses, that played a part in the change from Modjopahit to the empire of Mataram.
The engraving of flowers and claspers on the wilah is decoration done in a positive relief. Applying with gold rises the decoration from the surface.

[empu kumis]

Hello Kerislovers,

the animals on top of the ganja are not original but made recently. The blade itself is not a good one because of the low condition. Remember Balinese Blades are polished not etched like the Javanese. Etching of Balinese blades came up maybe in the 70ties because of the lack of caretaking. To get a Balinese keris in good first class condition is almost impossibleSee: Hamzuri 1982-83 Petunjuk Singkat Tentang Keris p. 8.

Animals on Balinese blades (ganja) are sometimes present even of gold and sometimes like the Javanese Singa Barong (not a tiger), Gajah, winged horse and so on. impossible.
See: Hamzuri 1982-83 Petunjuk Singkat Tentang Keris p. 8.

Its said the meaning of this animals is a date and also like a medal of honour for bravery especially under Sultan Agung.

empu kumis

[capt.smash]

Thanks Henk for looking that up thats a great help and interesting

Hi Empu Kumis thanks for your comments this blade is highly polished and you cant feel the pamor if you run your finger over it but does have random pitting and wear from past corrosion im very sure its older than the 1970,s .

Also after more cleaning i have discovred that there is a wafer thin gold shim between the blade and the ganja its only visable in a couple of places and is incredibly thin my camera wont zoom in close enough to catch it properly... strange but interesting

[empu kumis]

Hello Capt. Smash,

its not only the corrosion but also the incomplete greneng and the blade is to narrow. It could be reshaped. This has been done many times to rise the prices in Bali and even more in Jawa.

The blade itself is older but reshaped. Up to now there has been almost no research about the age of Balinese kerisses. If somebody telling you the age of a Balinese keris its always pure speculation. Even to tell about where it comes from (Southbali or Northbali) is difficult and in Bali almost everythings is forgotten.

[capt.smash]

After some TLC and a visit to doctor arsenic....nice pamor in my opinion

[Henk]

Did you that by yourself??? The result is great !!! Next step is restoring the gold part and if possible a good dress for this fellow.

[Bill]

Looks very good Captain, as some of your past posts show questions about etching, tell us about your experiances to date.

[capt.smash]

HI guys, Henk yes i did it myself i am currently looking at gold leaf/gilding and have found that gold leaf is quite cheep so i will be doing this very soon .Im also looking into re-doing the fadeing an in some places worn away engraveing on the blade but this is a long term project[i already have the engraveing tools but it will require some further experimentation before hand].


Hi Bill i have been building up to this kind of project for some time and just as i was ready this blade fell into my lap as if it was meant to be .My first task was the staining solution witch as i described in my thread on "warangan".Firstly i had to find a source of Arsenic witch as you know is a banned substance in most countries and after some searching and help from other members i found that warangan[the traditional mineral for staining keris] was probably the ore Realgar[Arsenic sulfide]easily sourced on ebay then powdering it[ a lump of ore about an inch square part crystal part rock]and adding it to about 1 and a half liters of grapefruit juice.I tested this on an inferior trade blade that i got for this task and it worked well although i have found the grapefruit juice is only mildly acidic and only removes dirt and dosent etch the blade [ideal for a bali blade that has a polished surface] so for a more acidic solution i will use limes.I soaked the blade for 1 and a half days in my bathroom with ambient temprature of about 20deg C [slow but easily controllable].

The hardest part was prapareing/restoreing the blade.As you can see from the pics it was in bad shape with lots of corosion, rust ,scratches and pitting along the blade[the pamor not visable in a few plces], fortunately most of the pitting was only very shallow and i spent a day and a half of intermitant sanding with 6 grades of sandpaper [the type used in praparing car bodywork] starting with p100 to remove the surface material on both sides to a point where the pittingwas minimal and i could put a polish on the blade[aproximately quarter of a milimeter off both sides but im guessing there]this was the hardest part becuase i had to draw a line between a good surface and changeing the shape /lines of the blade witch i didnt want to do.After this i then gradualy went down in courseness of sandpaper p180,p320,p400,p800,p1500 till it was in a position to be easily polished.
Some of our more traditional keris lovers may want to look away now I then did a quick pass on a rotary buffing wheel to polish the blade to a nice shine.And finaly gave the blade a few whipes with a rag soaked in sulfuric acid[car battery acid] to re-open the grain of the blade so the pamor could be set free.
In all i probaly removed about 3 quarters of a mill,s worth of material from the blade ,amazeing the difrence it has made and with no detremental afects on the strength of the blade.

Make what you will of it,any coments welcome

sorry about the grammar

[rasdan]

You're the man Capt., believe me you're the man. To me, that metal that makes your keris and the type of pamor is almost impossible to etch; except for the Javaneese specialist. For amature collector to etch a keris like that is SUPERB!! I've used natural realgar, and the result is ok on several kerisses only, that is keris with a kinda porous metal. With kerisses like yours, its almost impossible for me to etch. And yet, you've done it. Perhaps i should use purer realgar. However, i believe most collector in SE Asia would not approve the sandpaper method. As for me, if it works...what the heck...

Can u please explain regarding opening the steel grain using sulphuric acid? What does it do to the grain structure?

[capt.smash]

Hi Rasdan thanks for your kind words As for" opening the grain"[i must mention that all the sanding was done with strokes running parrallel to the length of the blade only]now after the whole sanding and polishing process if i looked down the blade i could not see the pamor ,the sanding causes the visable surface to blend /smear together so the pamor is barely visible[best way i can think of explaing it] so a quick whipe with battery acid gives it a slight etch just enough to make the pattern visible again.Do you know what i mean by sealed grain?
Also i forgot to mention that i only sanded the blade up to about 3 inches before the ganja[just before it starts to taper outwards] this was so i didnt remove any of the original engraveing.

Any information on technique the profesional restorer would have done on any of these stages would be most welcome

[rasdan]

Thanks for the info Capt. I try the method in my next session of staining.

[BSMStar]

Hi Captain,

Nitric acid (HNO3) is commonly used to etch meteorites (it removes iron faster than nickel)... it may work better for you to "open" or "lift" the grain of the pamor. But of course, if it is not available then sulfuric will work a little more slowly. Be careful of the concentration you use (5% nitric in 95% isopropyl alcohol works, slowly add acids to other diluents and not the other way around - it can be a violent reaction) and the exposures time that you allow to the acid, you do not want to be too aggressive. It sounds like you are off to a great start!

Phosphoric acid makes a great rust remover in extreme cases.

[tom hyle]

This to me is the ultimate journey in collecting; when you get into the actual processes of the original culture, and can give the piece even more respect than to preserve it; to improve it; all congratulations to you, and thanks for sharing.

[nechesh]

Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials.

[capt.smash]

Hi guys. Tom thanks for your kind words i realy enjoyed doing this ...ill post more pics when i get the gold back on it.

BSMStar thanks for the cool info very helpful ...now ill have to buy another old trade blade to have a play with

Hi Nachesh "i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture"
I see where you are comeing from here ..do you know what the traditional methods would have been?id love to know and i was hopeing someone with the knowhow would post and share the knowledge.I cant realy see how my methods could be that diffrent ...for sandpaper they would have just used a similar grade of stone and they presumably would have used arsenic and acid to etch it?

"Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture."I tried to be as respectful as i could believe me[ i put alot of time into makeing the staining process as traditional as i could] ....and i was perfectly aware that i could have just sanded the blade in five min,s useing a sanding pad on a angle grinder and then polished it useing a metal polishing wheel.But i chose to spend a day and a half sanding it by hand with 6 grades of sandpaper to near mirror polish[not an easy task i can tell you my hands were killing me at the end ].The only acid i used was sulfuric acid from a battery ..and i only wiped the blade a few times with a rag soaked in it....this is quite a mild acid[i never even wore gloves]
I am confident this method will work for any keris blade ive stained 2 other blades 1 before and 1 after and both responded equally well, it just a matter of how long you leave the blade in the solution[the longer you leave it the darker it becomes].Its not rocket science if you ask me the real secret to a good looking blade is how well it was forged originaly[if the beauty is there then the etch and stain will bring it out]

[nechesh]

Hi Smashy. I wasn't really questioning your sanding techniques. Traditionally a Bali blade would be polished though i am not particularly certain how this is actually done. As for your staining process, i give you kudos for grinding up your own from realgar. From what i know about the process the arsenic isn't used in the cleaning stage though. Usually that is done first and then a mixture of arsenic and lime juice is used to stain. Your method seemed a bit unorthodox, but if it worked.... It's the battery acid part that worries me and also Wayne's suggest of other harsher acids. There will always be disagreement between collectors on this point, i suppose, dependant upon how much you relate to both the cultural and the mystical aspects of the keris, but my feeling has always been that in this case, the old ways are the best ways (for the spirit of the keris) and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I admire your enterprise, but i don't think battery acid is for me.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by capt.smash

The only acid i used was sulfuric acid from a battery ..and i only wiped the blade a few times with a rag soaked in it....this is quite a mild acid[i never even wore gloves]

Captain,

I would add a word of caution using (such as car) battery acid... depending on the age of the battery, the acid can easily "burn" your skin. Try some on concrete and you will see what I mean. I recommend using the proper safety equipment (rubber gloves and glasses for you eyes), I would hate to hear about a fellow forumite being injured by acid of any kind.

As to the question should this be done or is it an improvement... it is a difficult and personal call that depends on the piece needing restoration, its condition and the skill of the person doing the restoration. I may cringe at some of the methods uses here, but if the Captain is happy and the results are good...

I do not believe we (who are not trained in the correct cultural methodology) can improve what was done before (at best it is modification, not an improvement). All that we can "improve" is the appearance that is personally pleasing verses its current condition. Is this the right thing to do? I believe this is at the heart of your question nechesh, a difficult question that depends on many elements I think.

[tom hyle]

Cap'n Welcome to the wonderful world of taking care of antiques in front of people; there is nothing you can do or refrain from doing that someone won't complain about bitterly, so don't get too 'sturbed. I continue to congratulate you on a job well done, and believe that though it might've liked to hear some nice songs or prayers while being cleaned, you've otherwise kept quite well enough to the native ways of the piece. Battery acid may not be as yummie as fruit juice, but since it does the same thing, may I suggest it is more like a vitamen pill than a poison one? Otherwise, it's just what a native would do if he could afford to, and I can only add that it would've been good to sharpen it while you were sanding. kudos.

[nechesh]

Gee Tom, can't say i see much "bitterness" in my comments. I was just stating my opinion, much the same as you were.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by nechesh

It's the battery acid part that worries me and also Wayne's suggest of other harsher acids. There will always be disagreement between collectors on this point, i suppose, dependant upon how much you relate to both the cultural and the mystical aspects of the keris, but my feeling has always been that in this case, the old ways are the best ways

Hi nechesh,

First I would like to address that different acids would react differently with different substances. It is a matter of selecting the best acid for the job... To me, harshness is more of a degree of concentration or dilution than which acid is being used (in this case). Notice the concentrations I am suggesting. As to rust removal, I believe I stated in extreme cases (in other words, its already "junk"), and even then, dilution is an option I would suggest (always start with a less aggressive solution).

I can fully understand the Captain's position on what to do with blade that is less than "prime." Being a Japanese sword collector, one is always faces with the dilemma... is it valuable enough to sent it to Japan and have it re-polished at over $100 an inch (plus furniture... so you can rap up $3,000 to $5,000 into a sword real fast) or do something else (especially if the blade is only worth $500 even after being polished).... I have a hand made blade from around 1910, the Japanese will not accept for polish because it is not from the Samurai period (its their law). Now what do you do?

I would not take a "do it yourself" approach with an expensive Pusaka... but on a "reject" piece that I have nothing to lose.... It won't be the Indonesian way and it should not compete with their way, but as a last resort to "save" or bring "new life" to a piece, I think it is worth the experiment rather than shove it in a drawer to let it rust away. Who knows what we may learn? As for the better blades, I agree with you nechesh... let it be done the correct and traditional way.

I will try to post a picture of what can happen if one gets too aggressive with acid. It is a crying shame.

[BSMStar]

Fair warning for you faint of heart... do not look at the following image... acid burns... and can destroy a Keris!

[capt.smash]

Holy smoke dude what happened there? Did you do it or is it an example you have seen?