Elephant Sword

[Bill M]

Never seen anything like this and decided it might make an interesting display piece. I have friends who have bought from this seller and they were pleased with their purchases and felt the seller had good pieces. If they had not suggested this seller had integrity, I would not have bid.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEAFB:IT

However when it came I had three unpleasant surprises.

First The blade was broken off at the hilt.

Second the blade is about 1/16th of an inch thick, or less. I could understand how this could break as the hilt is massive and the blade is thin.

Third, Noticed in his ad that in one place he said it was "bone" and in another place "bone, tusk" So I emailed him before bidding asking if it was "bone or ivory." He replied it was Ivory. See his comment section where he posted my question and his response.

Q: Are you sure this is bone and not ivory? Bill Dec-22-07
A: it's ivory - elephant tusk.

The piece had been lost in transit for about a month. He claims "our postal system" broke it.

I told him that a sword, less than 1/16th of an inch would be broken by a man, let alone a beast as powerful as an elephant and that he had not mentioned that the blade was as thin as that in his eBay auction.

He insisted that it was old and authentic. However I never received an "invoice" stating date and value though he agreed to send one. He did PayPal refund me $250. But even the remainder of what I paid is still too much for a broken piece that I suspect is "tourist" and if so, not worth repairing.

I would like your opinions as to whether this was an "Elephant Sword," or a tourist wall hanger?

It is too late to reverse PayPal, but I still have about another month of time to leave feedback.

[Tim Simmons]

Oh dear Bill

Options for the seller-

Hanged drawn and quartered press 1

Broken on a wheel press 2

Simple head on a stick press 3

Impalement press 4

[Ferguson]

Agree that it's a fake wallhanger. The blade also looks like it has been welde just above the tang. The blade is way too thin, and the tang is way too small. Hilt is bone. That stinks. Sorry Bill. Chalk this one up to experience, and ding the seller with bad feedback if he won't refund your money.

Steve

[Lew]

Bill

The hilt is bone without a doubt the blade at the hilt seems so thin I do not understand how it supported that massive blade. The break seems too far down to have been welded back in place. Was the box it came in damaged? It is definately a wall hanger live and learn. I myself fell into the old trap recently of not asking shipping cost from a UK seller and was hit with a $70 plus shipping fee for a 32 inch long 2lb item.

Lew

[Bill M]

What I would like is for the seller to admit this is a wall hanger, refund the rest of my money and let me return this thing.

I also feel that in this case, since it is an obvious wall hanger and was misrepresented, or at least silent to the blade thickness, that the seller should also refund shipping both ways.

This seller has had a good reputation in the past. I don't understand how this happened.

[Montino Bourbon]

The dealer does say...

"A SPECTACULAR WALLHANGER"

and in the earlier description...

"Material: Steel, bone & brass"

Later, he mentions "Elephant tusk"...

so which is it? It definitely looks like bone to me- and if an elephant tried to swing that thing around, with the thinness of the tang there's no doubt that it would break. Perhaps a ceremonial piece?

Pretty cool looking, though... but if you're looking for functionality and 'elephant tusk' I would definitely ask for my money back.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I also feel that in this case, since it is an obvious wall hanger and was misrepresented, or at least silent to the blade thickness, that the seller should also refund shipping both ways.

Hi Bill,
surely this was misrepresented in more ways......stating that bone was ivory ...is the main one IMHO ....any piece that has a substantial hilt composing of Elephant Ivory would almost certainly be a 'quality item'....
Secondly, anyone who sells, handles or buys bladed weapons would DEFINATELY know such a puny blade would not be functional. (and I quote....."A fearsome blade" )Certainly the blade at the forte should be relatively thick to strenghen the area of the blade that undergoes extreme stresses when striking the target ....this 'sword' did not.

.
I have seen a number of eBay sellers who originally sold quality items ....now selling 'dross' ...misrepresenting many of their items.....getting over inflated prices for them....and getting away with it. I think the increasing interest in Ethnographic items, and some buyers lack of knowledge has made this situation worse.

Even if you place negative feedback....it is likely 'he' will do the same for you with some 'made up' excuse. A sort of 'feedback blackmail'.

Ebay is not the great marketplace it used to be......its a real shame.

All the best

David

[Lew]

As far as real elephant swords go I saw something on Discovery channel or history channel two months ago about the Mughals and the elephants were fitted on there tusks with some type nasty sword object I really can't see a sword being swung by the trunk in that way.

http://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Empire.../dp/B000H5U5SU

Lew

Btw

The seller states.

According to an expert in the SE arms & armor this is an elephants sword made for an elephant.

So in this statement he has laid claim to it's authenticity.

[CourseEight]

Originally Posted by katana

Even if you place negative feedback....it is likely 'he' will do the same for you with some 'made up' excuse. A sort of 'feedback blackmail'.

A horrific situation to be sure, but as for the feedback, starting May, 2008 sellers will no longer be able to leave negative feedback. At that point, buyers from sellers such as this one can leave negative feedback without fear of reprisal.

http://pages.ebay.com/services/forum/new.html

Of course, there are a lot of reasons a seller could legitimately leave negative feedback, but this change does fix the 'blackmail' problem...

Sadly, it won't help in this situation though, but there's always Karma...

--Radleigh

[katana]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

As far as real elephant swords go I saw something on Discovery channel or history channel two months ago about the Mughals and the elephants were fitted on there tusks with some type nasty sword object I really can't see a sword being swung by the trunk in that way.

Lew

Btw

The seller states.

According to an expert in the SE arms & armor this is an elephants sword made for an elephant.

So in this statement he has laid claim to it's authenticity.

Hi Lew,
I tend to agree, whilst researching the use of Elephants in Warfare I never found a reference to a 'trunk wielded' sword .....spikes strapped to the trunk, sometimes. More info about the tusk 'swords' (and pic) on this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Ceylon+spear


Regards David

[Rick]

Bill , was there no postal insurance on this sword ?

I would assume that the piece having arrived broken would be considered a total loss .

[Mark]

I am sorry to say, this is almost certainly a fake. I have no idea what "Siamese history" is being referred to in the description, but having done more than a little research on Siamese history, and in particular martial history, I have never seen a reference to such a sword. The illustration is of a scene from the life of Gautama, the attack of Mara and his demonic hordes attempting to prevent Gautama attaining enlightenment. These are invariably very fanciful in depicting the demonic side, including weapons used, so I don't place much credence in the painting as reflecting anything historical.

To my eye there are a number of big red flags in the photos and description, including the close-up of the break, the poor execution of the fitting decoration, an evident (to me at least) lack of any third-dimension geometry (the blade looks flat, in other words) and the very rough execution of the blade. They hardly shout "spectacular," or "authentic" to me - I am immediately suspicious of such hyped language, anyway. Though perhaps in other contexts a blade roughly cut from a flat piece of steel would be a genuine article of historical manufacture, that was not something that was done in SEA until late in the last century.

If they truly guarantee the authenticity of everything they sell, and provide a certificate to that effect, you should have a legitimate claim to a refund, as the blade on in-hand inspection clearly is not an historical item and they have not provided the certificate. I am curious to know the identity of the "expert in SEA arms & armor," but I expect that if you challenge the seller to name him/her all you will get is evasion.

By the way, feel free to cite me as a recognized expert who says it is junk.

[Mark]

By the way, putting on my moderator hat, please remember that criticisms here must be limited to the item sold, and the seller should not be named or directly attacked. Of course, we are pretty tolerant of direct accusations of dishonest against a seller if there is blatant fraud or a crime involved, and putting the link to the auction is, of course, fine so long as the auction has ended (people can take what they will from the information they get by following the link). But, the basic rule of the forum is to knock the sale, not the seller.

Thank you.

Mark
Vikingsword Staff

[Sikh_soldier]

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

The dealer does say...

"A SPECTACULAR WALLHANGER"
.

He also stated it dates: 1700-1800
and the values at:Est.: $1500-2000


I feel bad for you Bill , Collecting is great fun. , but ethical values in dealers are as hard to find as.....an authentic elephant sword!

Don't get mad get EVEN!

negative feedback all the way!


and what goes around comes around, hopefully a beautiful Wootz steel sword originally owned by a King will find its way to you for under $100

best of luck next time

[katana]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

A horrific situation to be sure, but as for the feedback, starting May, 2008 sellers will no longer be able to leave negative feedback. At that point, buyers from sellers such as this one can leave negative feedback without fear of reprisal.

http://pages.ebay.com/services/forum/new.html

Of course, there are a lot of reasons a seller could legitimately leave negative feedback, but this change does fix the 'blackmail' problem...

Sadly, it won't help in this situation though, but there's always Karma...

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh,
interesting......but I have reservations....one sided feedback could cause problems for sellers. Buyers could threaten to leave negative to get a reduction in the price, etc ....so legit sellers could be open to abuse. Theoretically, a bidder could overbid to win the auction....then for a non legitimate reason could demand a partial refund, or threaten to leave negative feedback.
I think eBay should find a fairer independant service to assess claims of this nature. Also, I have noticed some 'power sellers' seem to operate fraudently (misrepresentation etc) and yet, even though there are continual complaints from buyers eBay seem reluctant to remove the 'power' status eBay seem keen to leave the onus and responsibility of transactions to the buyer and seller ...saving them any legal or moral obligation. I feel with more and more eBay horror stories that, eBay should take more responsibillity......afterall it is in their interests as more and more eBayers are losing faith in the present 'set-up'.

What is also interesting is this on the listing.....

"Authenticity Guaranteed: Senatus Consulto fully guarantees all artifacts and coins to be genuine in every aspect. Any detail regarding an antiquity that is not known to us, will be noted as such. All artifacts and collectibles are accompanied by an invoice which also function as a Lifetime Certificate of Authenticity. Any item significantly deviating from the information provided by us regarding culture and dating, may be returned for a promp refund excluding shipping and handling."

.........perhaps it would be better just to send it back and swallow the postage charges ...however, how do you define 'significantly deviating ' ...personally I think it is ....authentic 'stated'... but I feel, overwhelmingly agreed (on this forum) to be 'not authentic'........ Two complete opposites....I think that 'significantly deviating'....don't you ?

[Andrew]

I, of course, agree with Mark's assessment of this weapon. Several similar swords have appeared on the market in recent years. The first was obtained by a member here and brought to Timonium a few years ago where we handled and discussed it. That example was rather fine with nice silver koft and an ivory handle.

I, too, doubt these are elephant swords. Rather, they are likely ceremonial, decorative or "bearing" swords. The plate the seller used is the only such example I have ever seen showing an elephant holding a sword in its trunk. As Mark noted, it is a fantastical scene and you can see other animorphic characters holding weapons. Frankly, the thought of an elephant wielding a gigantic sword is such a terrifying vision that, if it were accurate, I would expect we'd see it depicted in art much more frequently.


With regard to editorial comments about a seller, well, I see no problem if one simply reports accurate facts. The reader is free to draw whatever conclusion they like. This Website, and the Staff, are not responsible for the posts of any member: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

[Dajak]

Nowledge and books are an must for the collector to avoid things like this.

Ebay not the way to build up an collection .


Pics off the weapon from different side s always very important.



Ben

[fearn]

Hi Bill,

Not that I'm an experienced collector, but I did get into an EBay spitting contest with a guy who sold me some stuff. Basically, it was a swivel for a nunchaku, and it never arrived. Eventually part of the flimsy envelope he mailed it in showed up, and it was pretty obvious why I never received the swivel. We both left negative comments for each other, and EBay's attempt to mediate ended when I pointed out that if the seller had simply charged more for shipping and sent the item in a box, the problem would never have occurred. He shut up too.

That said, I think there's an important point here. When getting something in shipping, 1) check the box for damage (not a bad idea to photograph it unopened). 2) open it carefully (perhaps more photos?). If the item is in pieces inside an undamaged box, then you can make a good case for misrepresentation. If the box is trashed along with the item inside, then the seller is at most responsible for bad choices in packaging and the shipping method, not for damage to the item itself.

While I hesitate to take the seller's side even partially, it is possible that the weapon did get trashed in shipment. When you have a long flimsy blade and heavy handle, it's possible to break it through rough handling. That doesn't exempt him from criticism (especially about the weapon's represented qualities), but I'm just as apt to suspect our postal service.

[Totally off-topic, but I recently moved 40 miles from my previous address. Not a problem, right? I'm still trying to get the mail forwarded, and yesterday I found out that they're still shipping some mail to my old address. This is fascinating, given that I'm also getting magazines at my new address, meaning that the address change got entered into their computer system, but was not implemented on the ground. That's the US postal service for you.]

F

[Jim McDougall]

I would like to digress from the subject matter on ebay seller issues and address the elephant sword topic which heads this thread.

I am inclined to agree with Andrew concerning the likely purpose of this piece which does seem like a processional or bearing type weapon, and in that sense may have some degree of authenticity. It is difficult to really tell how effectively such ceremonial weapons may have been fashioned for non combat purposes, and how skilled the furbisher might have been.

It seems that psychological warfare has often been key in the creation of many weapons that have had questionable application for actual combat use. The addition of the hooks on this blade, the use of bone (or tusk as it were) in adding to the formidable appearance of this interesting piece does indeed carry a degree of such possibility.

As David has linked that thread from last January, it was interesting to review some material I had found that suggests there were indeed instances of edged weapons applied to the trunk and tusks of elephants in warfare. In "By my Sword and Shield" (E.Jaiwent Paul, p.106) it is noted that elephant tusks were tipped with metal points.
In an excellent article by Thom Richardson and Donna Stevens in Royal Armouries Yearbook (Vol.I 1996, pp.101-103), "The Elephant Armour", it is noted that elephants were armed with spears and knives at the Battle of Panipat (1556). Other instances are also noted and reference is made to the example of a pair of these tusk swords from Clives collection (from Powis Castle) now in the holdings at Leeds. The only others are from a Mysore arsenal and were sold by Sothebys in 1991.

While I am unsure of the use of elephants in warfare in SE Asia, it would seem possible that there was awareness of the concept from India. In any case, it would certainly be worthy of further research, while recognizing a degree of plausibility in the possible use of this piece. I am not sure that the use of 'wallhanger' in the description was intended to dismiss the authenticity of the weapon, but suggesting its potential for display in a grouping of weapons from these regions.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

Interesting coincidence: while reading your last posting, I was listening to an extended interview with an elephant researcher on National Public Radio. The main thrust of the interview was about the discovery of infrasonic communications and complex social structure in elephants (which, in addition to being huge, are also quite intelligent,very social, and have very good memories). They also mentioned current problems in Africa, where the decimation of herds has led to lone, young male elephants that deliberately attack villages nearby. Apparently these "rogues" have lost most of their family and are lashing out at humans, perhaps in revenge, perhaps because the elders who would have taught and disciplined them are gone.

I'm not going on an animal rights kick, but in light of what we now know about them, I'm really starting to wonder about the wisdom of giving elephants weapons and taking them into war. The problem is, you've got to live with the veteran elephants afterwards, and elephants can be traumatized by violence, as much as soldiers can.

This might explain why elephant swords and similar weapons are so rare. As I found out, it's easier to contemplate them as rare artifacts when you're not listening to what violence does to elephants.

My 0.02 cents,

F

[ariel]

When I look at the 3rd from the bottom picture in the original listing ( the one copied by Ferguson), I am struck by the shadow under the blade: one can " see through" the blade/tang.
Also, look at the strained position of the thumb: tries to keep the blade in place?

I think it was broken before mailing.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim,

Interesting coincidence: while reading your last posting, I was listening to an extended interview with an elephant researcher on National Public Radio. The main thrust of the interview was about the discovery of infrasonic communications and complex social structure in elephants (which, in addition to being huge, are also quite intelligent,very social, and have very good memories). They also mentioned current problems in Africa, where the decimation of herds has led to lone, young male elephants that deliberately attack villages nearby. Apparently these "rogues" have lost most of their family and are lashing out at humans, perhaps in revenge, perhaps because the elders who would have taught and disciplined them are gone.

I'm not going on an animal rights kick, but in light of what we now know about them, I'm really starting to wonder about the wisdom of giving elephants weapons and taking them into war. The problem is, you've got to live with the veteran elephants afterwards, and elephants can be traumatized by violence, as much as soldiers can.

This might explain why elephant swords and similar weapons are so rare. As I found out, it's easier to contemplate them as rare artifacts when you're not listening to what violence does to elephants.

My 0.02 cents,

F

Very key perspective Fearn, and it is very true, it is not commonly known that the elephant is an entirely amazing animal, extremely sensitive and they indeed have ways of communicating far beyond human understanding. I too have followed this topic for some time, and there was a wonderful book written on this, I wish I had the title. Violence and combat indeed have deeply traumatic effect on both animals and humans, as I do know personally.
It is the unfortunate nature of our field of study that the weapons have a inherently dark purpose, and I prefer to focus on them as objectively as possible, as historic artifacts that are often imbued with symbolism and traditions of thier cultures.

I think your point about giving these tremendously powerful animals weapons is well placed, and I have to believe that in many cases, the forces who did this likely deeply regretted it.

All best regards,
Jim

[katana]

I thought it a good idea to look at this from a different ‘angle’….to see if it was ‘possible’ for an Elephant to wield such a sword with it’s trunk. All references I can find say ‘yes’ the trunk is a very complex organ and utilizing small sticks (held in the trunk) to itch themselves or to remove parasites is common ‘wild behaviour’.


“….It is fascinating to watch one of them pick up a stick with its trunk and use it to itch themselves. The dexterity they have with both their trunks and their feet is amazing….”

Also….

“….The nineteenth-century French anatomist Georges Cuvier estimated the number of muscles controlling the movements of the trunk at 40,000, a figure that was long accepted. By dissecting trunks, my colleagues and I have recently been able to investigate the workings of these organs, down to the microscopic level. We believe that what Cuvier called "muscles" are actually small subunits of muscles, or muscle fascicles. We painstakingly counted the tiny fascicles on carefully sectioned regions of an Asian elephant's trunk and arrived at an estimate of about 150,000 (148,198, to be exact) muscle fascicles for the entire trunk…..”



An interesting reference to the Elephant’s intelligence…
http://www.natureinstitute.org/pub/ic/ic5/elephant.htm

Also to illustrate the dexterity and intelligence of elephants…… http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=69


I am beginning to think that…

1. The painting ‘evidence’ suggests that there is possible ceremonial / religious symbolism associated with an Elephant brandishing a sword.

2. An Elephant could indeed hold such a sword with its trunk, however, I personally feel that if a ‘battle’ version was successful, they would be much more common.

3. I also feel that a ‘Battle Elephant’ during conflict would have enough to do, without having to coordinate its eyes and trunk to use the sword effectively. The Tusk type sword extensions and ‘spikes’ strapped to the trunk utilized the ‘natural’ attacking behaviour of the animal, the attached ‘weapons’ making it more efficient.


If there is definite evidence of real age with this ‘sword’ , perhaps it is indeed ceremonial or processional or symbolic.

Regards David.

[Bill M]

In speaking of using their trunks, I had a friend in the Marines who was stationed somewhere there were wild elephants. He said they were incredibly quiet when moving through heavy brush and jungle.

But that when they attacked, they sometimes pulled up a small tree with a trunk about 3 or 4 inches in diameter with their trunk and they would beat the ground with it when they charged.

A frightening aspect!

[olikara]

I visited Jaipur and Udaipur Palaces in Rajasthan, India in the early 80's. I can distinctly remember Rajput miniatures contemporary to the 17, 18 Centuries in the palace galleries, depicting elephants holding edged weapons in their trunks.

It is also accepted that at battle of Haldighati on June 18, 1576, the Rajput Chief Rana Pratap's beloved horse 'Chetak' had it's leg slashed by a sword attached to a rampaging Mogul elephant. This is common knowledge here.

I have absolutely no doubt at all, that War elephants in India carried edged weapons in their trunks, may not be all of them but certainly many of them.

[katana]

Stone's ..."A glossary...Arms and Armour.." mentions Elephant swords..that they were frequently mentioned by early travellers....."Ludovici di Varthema (1501-1568 ) says that they were 2 fathoms long and attached to the trunk.

Stone then states..." More reasonable accounts describe them as blades projecting from sockets slipped over the tusks...."


A 2 fathom sword would be just over 3.60 metres long ...thats 12 foot ...a sword the length of TWO men . The thickness of the blade, to prevent excessive flexing would make the sword incredibly heavy and totally unuseable and I can certainly see why Stone is dubious about this reference.

With Olikara's information. the use of the 'trunk type' sword seems to have been abandoned in favour to the tusk type as any reference to them seem to be be hundreds of years ago.

Olikara you mentioned the slashing of the horse's leg by a sword 'attached' to an Elephant, could this have been the 'tusk type' or the bladed spikes strapped to the trunks...rather than a 'trunk held' sword?

I am surprised that if so many War Elephants were equiped with swords that there seems to be no examples that have survived

Regards David

[fearn]

Here's another possibility: elephants often do carry sticks of all sizes in their trunks, and some clever type may have decided to train them to carry a sword in their trunk in place of a stick.

I doubt that the elephant could be trained to effectively chop with that sword, but it might have been psychological weapon--the war elephant would be carrying a sword and waving it around and trumpeting, while the soldiers in the pagoda did something more effective with their weapons.

In that case, all an elephant sword would have to be is heavily built enough to survive being banged around by the elephant. Having it sharp might have even been an impediment.

As I noted above, training an elephant to kill people could be a really bad idea. It's easy enough for them to kill us without training, and trained killer elephants would be dangerous at all times, not just on the battlefield. That said, someone could put spikes on the tusks to make them better weapons, without training the elephant to do anything special with them.

Anyway, there is a problem with an elephant using a sword with its trunk. It would have a hard time getting enough leverage to cut with it. To see what problem is, take a kitchen knife (or a pocket knife), hold it only with your index finger curled around the hilt, and try cutting something. The elephant's trunk is more versatile than a single finger, but I think they've got the same problem.

[katana]

One of the tactics employed by foot soldiers ...when faced with Elephants ..is to sever the trunk A highly sensitive organ, the animal would suffer extreme pain and would be panicked and would often run away. That said, armour and chainmail was used to protect this vunerable area. The weight and restrictive movement of the armoured trunk would also make wielding a sword even less likely.

Psychological warfare perhaps, is a possible answer, that being the case, the sword would only have too look 'impressive' and not be functional. Too look impressive it had to be large, but not being functional it could be made lighter with a very thin spine to allow the elephant to hold it more easily.

Many Mughal War Elephants had chains (with heavy balls attatched) fitted to their trunks to lash out at the opposition.

"A beautiful example of chain-mail armor and an elephant trained to swing a chain-weapon in its trunk. The chains on the elephant's feet would be tightened or staked into the ground to prevent it from running away from the battle, if frightened."

Photo below has this caption...

"Maharao Durjansal of Kotah on His Elephant Ranasangar" circa 1760,

[olikara]

I was just looking up at The Battle of Haldighati on Wiki and it states there that 'Elephant Trunk Sword' is called 'Mardana'

While I am hearing of such a term being applied to an edged weapon for the first time, I know that 'Mardana' in Hindi stands for 'Manly/Masculine'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharana_Pratap


Disclaimer: I can in no way vouch for the veracity of information on Wikipidea!

[fearn]

Olikara,

I remember in one book on Chinese weapons, an "elephant trunk sword" was something like a hook sword (tip recurved like an elephant's trunk). In the wikipedia, it sounds like the weapon may have been shaped like an elephant trunk, rather than wielded by an elephant. Can't tell for certain, but that's my guess.

Katana,

actually, that elephant flail gizmo makes more sense than the sword. Neat find!

F