Sumbawa keris

Dominique · 14th May 2017, 07:26 PM

I am curious to understand the connection between Sumbawa and Banjarmasin. I have recently acquired a Sumbawa keris, with a Banjarmasin hilt, which is not unsual, and looking on the forum, I have found this Benjarmasin keris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7840 , which has a blade very similar to mine.
I know there were a lot of exchanges by sea through the Bugis, but why this special connexion, since these two places are pretty remote?

Marcokeris · 14th May 2017, 10:50 PM

Sorry Dominique but IMO also the handle is a Sumbawa hilt

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2017, 11:20 PM

Dominique, the concept of "remote" is one of perspective.

Here in Australia there is a little saying that Aboriginal people will sometimes use:-

"Whitefeller's wilderness, Blackfeller's backyard"

this points up the difference in the way different people can think about the same place. It was/is the same in SE Asia.

Before the Dutch occupied Jawa it was covered in dense forest with isolated settlements joined by poorly maintained tracks. The only slightly better tracks were where important people needed to pass from time to time. Transport wherever possible was by water. The Bengawan Solo, the major river joining the interior with the coast was navigable from Surabaya all the way up to Solo.

Indonesian peoples never have, and do not now, think of water as a barrier, they think of it as a highway. They do not speak of their "Motherland", or "Fatherland", they speak of "Tanah Air Kita":- "Our Land and Water".

All of those places scattered across the Archipelago, and the adjacent mainland, were not remote, they were within sailing distance and were no problem at all to get to.

Long before the Dutch touched on Australia, long before Captain Cook claimed it for the British, fishermen from what we now know as the Indonesian Archipelago were visiting Northern Australia for trepang fishing. They would sail down and spend a few months there, when the boats were full, they would sail home again.

They took wives from the indigenous people, and sometimes these wives would return north with them when they sailed home, so that now there are recognised blood ties and family ties between Australian indigenous people from the north coast of Australia, and people living in Sulawesi and other islands.

Makassar is usually thought of as the centre of this contact, but in fact there was contact with people from other islands as well, usually Bugis people. The Bugis went everywhere --- and very probably other cultural groups of the Archipelago were not far behind them.

Nothing in SE Asia was remote for the people living there.

Battara · 15th May 2017, 12:10 AM

Alan I was not aware of the intermarriage of Aboriginese and Sumbawans!

Many thanks!

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2017, 01:16 AM

A lot of people are still not aware of it, but the people concerned have known about it all along. The visits by the fishermen stopped in 1907 when the new Australian government outlawed them.

The relationship between peoples who are now Indonesian and the long term contact of these people with Northern Australia was something that was being pushed by the new nation of Indonesia from the 1950's through to the 1960's as the foundations for a claim on Northern Australia to become a part of Indonesia.

School atlases during that period showed Northern Australia as "South Irian" (Irian Selatan).

The new masters of Indonesia wanted everything that had been Dutch. It was an emotional thing, but they tried to justify it by claiming that West New Guinea was a part of the old "Mojopahit Empire", which never existed except in imagination.

When they invaded West New Guinea they named it Irian Jaya, so when they cast eyes on Northern Australia they named it "Irian Selatan".

Right through into the 1960's Indonesia was considered a possible threat to invade Northern Australia, and our defence strategy was based on this possibility.

Actually, the Indonesian take-over of West New Guinea makes very interesting reading, there is a heap of info on the net that covers the genocide and brutality of the Indonesian military in this place. The indigenous people will never win though, they'll be wiped out and bred out. Google "Grasberg Mine" or "OK Tedi Mine" and you will understand the reason why Indonesia needs this place.

Gavin Nugent · 15th May 2017, 02:14 AM

Thank you for the history lesson Alan, an aspect I was not aware of either...

Here is a little info readily found on the subject;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makass...with_Australia

Gavin

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2017, 02:52 AM

Yep, that's a pretty fair outline of the trepangers story. I think ABC TV aired a doco. on it a few years back, ABC or SBS, one or the other. They interviewed indigenous people who at the present time have family connections in the islands to the north.

asomotif · 17th May 2017, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominique

I am curious to understand the connection between Sumbawa and Banjarmasin. I have recently acquired a Sumbawa keris, with a Banjarmasin hilt, which is not unsual, and looking on the forum, I have found this Benjarmasin keris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7840 , which has a blade very similar to mine.
I know there were a lot of exchanges by sea through the Bugis, but why this special connexion, since these two places are pretty remote?

Hello Dominique,

All the silver work on this keris that you are showing looks brand new.
Í assume we are discussing the old keris from the other thread ?

Best regards,
Willem

David · 18th May 2017, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Dominique,

All the silver work on this keris that you are showing looks brand new.
Í assume we are discussing the old keris from the other thread ?

Best regards,
Willem

I tend to agree Willem. This dress is well executed and tasteful. I really like it. But i don't believe it is very old.

Dominique · 19th May 2017, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I tend to agree Willem. This dress is well executed and tasteful. I really like it. But i don't believe it is very old.

I don't know how old it is, but I can tell you it is not brand new, it has just been cleaned. The decoration is made of pure silver wire, this is why it might look new.

David · 19th May 2017, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominique

I don't know how old it is, but I can tell you it is not brand new, it has just been cleaned. The decoration is made of pure silver wire, this is why it might look new.

No, not brand new. I could be wrong, but this looks very much like a style of passio sumange (toli toli) in high quality silver work being done in the late 20th century, so i would say contemporary. The blade is much older.

Dominique · 20th May 2017, 10:59 AM

It is probably from the 20th century, but it has been worn since it has signs of wear.

14th May 2017, 07:26 PM	#1
Dominique Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Paris Posts: 21	Sumbawa keris I am curious to understand the connection between Sumbawa and Banjarmasin. I have recently acquired a Sumbawa keris, with a Banjarmasin hilt, which is not unsual, and looking on the forum, I have found this Benjarmasin keris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7840 , which has a blade very similar to mine. I know there were a lot of exchanges by sea through the Bugis, but why this special connexion, since these two places are pretty remote? Attached Images

15th May 2017, 01:16 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	A lot of people are still not aware of it, but the people concerned have known about it all along. The visits by the fishermen stopped in 1907 when the new Australian government outlawed them. The relationship between peoples who are now Indonesian and the long term contact of these people with Northern Australia was something that was being pushed by the new nation of Indonesia from the 1950's through to the 1960's as the foundations for a claim on Northern Australia to become a part of Indonesia. School atlases during that period showed Northern Australia as "South Irian" (Irian Selatan). The new masters of Indonesia wanted everything that had been Dutch. It was an emotional thing, but they tried to justify it by claiming that West New Guinea was a part of the old "Mojopahit Empire", which never existed except in imagination. When they invaded West New Guinea they named it Irian Jaya, so when they cast eyes on Northern Australia they named it "Irian Selatan". Right through into the 1960's Indonesia was considered a possible threat to invade Northern Australia, and our defence strategy was based on this possibility. Actually, the Indonesian take-over of West New Guinea makes very interesting reading, there is a heap of info on the net that covers the genocide and brutality of the Indonesian military in this place. The indigenous people will never win though, they'll be wiped out and bred out. Google "Grasberg Mine" or "OK Tedi Mine" and you will understand the reason why Indonesia needs this place. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 15th May 2017 at 01:26 AM.

14th May 2017, 10:50 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Sorry Dominique but IMO also the handle is a Sumbawa hilt

14th May 2017, 11:20 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Dominique, the concept of "remote" is one of perspective. Here in Australia there is a little saying that Aboriginal people will sometimes use:- "Whitefeller's wilderness, Blackfeller's backyard" this points up the difference in the way different people can think about the same place. It was/is the same in SE Asia. Before the Dutch occupied Jawa it was covered in dense forest with isolated settlements joined by poorly maintained tracks. The only slightly better tracks were where important people needed to pass from time to time. Transport wherever possible was by water. The Bengawan Solo, the major river joining the interior with the coast was navigable from Surabaya all the way up to Solo. Indonesian peoples never have, and do not now, think of water as a barrier, they think of it as a highway. They do not speak of their "Motherland", or "Fatherland", they speak of "Tanah Air Kita":- "Our Land and Water". All of those places scattered across the Archipelago, and the adjacent mainland, were not remote, they were within sailing distance and were no problem at all to get to. Long before the Dutch touched on Australia, long before Captain Cook claimed it for the British, fishermen from what we now know as the Indonesian Archipelago were visiting Northern Australia for trepang fishing. They would sail down and spend a few months there, when the boats were full, they would sail home again. They took wives from the indigenous people, and sometimes these wives would return north with them when they sailed home, so that now there are recognised blood ties and family ties between Australian indigenous people from the north coast of Australia, and people living in Sulawesi and other islands. Makassar is usually thought of as the centre of this contact, but in fact there was contact with people from other islands as well, usually Bugis people. The Bugis went everywhere --- and very probably other cultural groups of the Archipelago were not far behind them. Nothing in SE Asia was remote for the people living there.

15th May 2017, 12:10 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Alan I was not aware of the intermarriage of Aboriginese and Sumbawans! Many thanks!

15th May 2017, 02:14 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thank you for the history lesson Alan, an aspect I was not aware of either... Here is a little info readily found on the subject; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makass...with_Australia Gavin

15th May 2017, 02:52 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Yep, that's a pretty fair outline of the trepangers story. I think ABC TV aired a doco. on it a few years back, ABC or SBS, one or the other. They interviewed indigenous people who at the present time have family connections in the islands to the north.

20th May 2017, 10:59 AM	#12
Dominique Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Paris Posts: 21	It is probably from the 20th century, but it has been worn since it has signs of wear.