Sword club where from??

Tim Simmons · 28th March 2012, 07:11 PM

My latest find. Very interesting sword club. Fast light hard wood, easily break bones. Rather smart carved guard. Nicely balanced weapon. It is covered with a native lacquer. In my mind I think I have seem something along these lines in a book but I cannot find anything. I could be blending thoughts of one of those Maori weapons. In the absents of any real evidence I suspect PNG ? Perhaps somebody has a better idea. It is 38 inches or 96cm long. I show it with something a lot heavier which we might all be more familiar with.

fearn · 28th March 2012, 07:37 PM

Sure it's not from the Philippines? I don't have pictures, but I've seen similar things from eskrima.

Best,

F

edit: found a reference to Philippine sword sticks called "garotes." Not the most original name, but that's my guess for now.

VANDOO · 29th March 2012, 04:40 PM

THIS IS CLOSE TO THE DESIGN OF THE MAORI STAFF/SPEAR WEAPON TAHIATA. I SUSPECT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN USED IN THE SAME FASHON. THE FLAT ROUNDED END FOR STRIKING LIKE A SWORD BLADE AND THE POINTED HEAVY END FOR THRUSTING LIKE A SPEAR. THERE IS NO CARVING AND THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN FORM FROM THE MAORI WEAPON BUT THERE IS MUCH IN COMMON IN FORM AND DESIGN FOR FIGHTING STYLE.
I DOUBT IT WAS GRIPPED IN THE FASHON SHOWN IN THE PHOTO TRY THE AREA OF THE SHAFT CLOSEST TO THE SPEAR END AND CHECK BALANCE OF THE WEAPON USING A TWO HANDED GRIP AS THE MAORI DO. THIS DESIGN IS FOR FAST BLOCKING AND STRIKING AS WELL AS THRUSTING WITH BOTH ENDS. NICE LOOKING CLUB PERHAPS A UNFINISHED MAORI CLUB OR ONE INFLUENCED BY THE MAORI FORM. IT IS SHORT FOR A TAHIATA PERHAPS ONE FOR A YOUNG MAN TO PRACTICE WITH HENCE NO CARVED DESIGNS. ITS PROBABLY A BIT LONG FOR PHILIPPINE CLUBS?.

kahnjar1 · 29th March 2012, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THIS IS CLOSE TO THE DESIGN OF THE MAORI STAFF/SPEAR WEAPON TAHIATA. I SUSPECT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN USED IN THE SAME FASHON. THE FLAT ROUNDED END FOR STRIKING LIKE A SWORD BLADE AND THE POINTED HEAVY END FOR THRUSTING LIKE A SPEAR. THERE IS NO CARVING AND THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN FORM FROM THE MAORI WEAPON BUT THERE IS MUCH IN COMMON IN FORM AND DESIGN FOR FIGHTING STYLE.
I DOUBT IT WAS GRIPPED IN THE FASHON SHOWN IN THE PHOTO TRY THE AREA OF THE SHAFT CLOSEST TO THE SPEAR END AND CHECK BALANCE OF THE WEAPON USING A TWO HANDED GRIP AS THE MAORI DO. THIS DESIGN IS FOR FAST BLOCKING AND STRIKING AS WELL AS THRUSTING WITH BOTH ENDS. NICE LOOKING CLUB PERHAPS A UNFINISHED MAORI CLUB OR ONE INFLUENCED BY THE MAORI FORM. IT IS SHORT FOR A TAHIATA PERHAPS ONE FOR A YOUNG MAN TO PRACTICE WITH HENCE NO CARVED DESIGNS. ITS PROBABLY A BIT LONG FOR PHILIPPINE CLUBS?.

Definately not a Taiaha...pic attached....and I very much doubt Maori.(too plain) Barry's reference to "practice sticks" could be correct but such sticks used for Taiaha practice were just usually plain lengths of a suitable tree branch, and full length.
Regards Stu

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2012, 07:08 PM

I too do or should I say did doubt this is a Taiaha. However I have found this New Zealand link which is exactly the same size as my item.

http://www.antiquesreporter.com.au/i...-having-a-car/

I am still very unsure about the type of wood and the finish with a gum/resin lacquer. Also as Stu has mentioned the lack of decoration. I still think it is a weapon though.

kahnjar1 · 29th March 2012, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I too do or should I say did doubt this is a Taiaha. However I have found this New Zealand link which is exactly the same size as my item.

http://www.antiquesreporter.com.au/i...-having-a-car/

I am still very unsure about the type of wood and the finish with a gum/resin lacquer. Also as Stu has mentioned the lack of decoration. I still think it is a weapon though.

That is a Taiaha but you are looking at the pic from the "business end". The plain end furthest away as you look at the pic is the handle end.
Stu

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2012, 07:45 PM

If you ignore the fancy decoration. They are indeed remarkably similar. Perhaps the status of the owner may have a bearing on the quality of finish, if it is a childs Taiaha?

Another thing it looks very much like a palm wood. The Maori did use Nikau palm wood for many things like flooring. I have not been able to get any images of Nikau palm wood timber.

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2012, 08:41 PM

After some research it seems that there were indeed shorter versions of Taiaha and Pouwhenua, also varriations on the Society, Austral and Cook Islands. So just perhaps it is rather a good thing.

fearn · 29th March 2012, 09:43 PM

Gentlemen,

As I understand it, taiahas don't have midribs. They are rounded in cross section, unlike Tim's club. REALLY unlike Tim's club. As for their ancestry, there are similar clubs here and there throughout Polynesia. It's an old design.

From the pictures, it doesn't particularly look like palm wood, but I could be wrong. Palm wood has longitudinal fibers, but it doesn't have rays or growth rings I see evidence both of those in this specimen, which suggests to me that it's from a broadleaf tree. (Explanation growth rings should be obvious. Rays are lines of cells in the wood that connect the different growth rings, and run perpendicular both to the length of the trunk and the circumference of the growth rings, if that makes sense).

I'm sticking with the Philippines on this one. It's a wooden sword.

F

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2012, 10:23 PM

Could also be Malay and surrounding islands. Thier stick fighting might not be known as eskrima but I would bet they are along the same lines? The lacquer makes me think it is not maori in anyway.

kahnjar1 · 30th March 2012, 07:23 AM

I agree with FEARN. The Taiaha does NOT have a ribbed handle so I do not think it is Maori but something else entirely.
Stu

Tim Simmons · 30th March 2012, 01:06 PM

Here we have a tanterlising look at much more likely items. Sadly not all can be seen but look at what are know as flat clubs, nos17 in the picture of Baining weapons New Britain from "Richard Parkinsin, Thirty Years In The South Seas"

Also no2 in the second picture could be seen as a similar form perhaps a bit heavier. Whether the item is held as I show it is open to question. You could have your hand above the guard. However I would prefere to use it as a sword in my hand as shown, mainly I suspect because I learnt European fencing.

It is all very well admiring big heavy club weapons but what about if you have to run, be light of foot and chase an enemy and then hit then. You would not be much good carrying a big club that would soon feel like running with a tree.

fearn · 30th March 2012, 03:48 PM

Hi Tim,

I don't think you're wrong to hold it as a sword. If that's the most comfortable way to hold it, that's probably the way it was meant to be held.

F

28th March 2012, 07:11 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Sword club where from?? My latest find. Very interesting sword club. Fast light hard wood, easily break bones. Rather smart carved guard. Nicely balanced weapon. It is covered with a native lacquer. In my mind I think I have seem something along these lines in a book but I cannot find anything. I could be blending thoughts of one of those Maori weapons. In the absents of any real evidence I suspect PNG ? Perhaps somebody has a better idea. It is 38 inches or 96cm long. I show it with something a lot heavier which we might all be more familiar with. Attached Images

28th March 2012, 07:37 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Sure it's not from the Philippines? I don't have pictures, but I've seen similar things from eskrima. Best, F edit: found a reference to Philippine sword sticks called "garotes." Not the most original name, but that's my guess for now. Last edited by fearn; 29th March 2012 at 05:47 AM.

29th March 2012, 07:45 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	If you ignore the fancy decoration. They are indeed remarkably similar. Perhaps the status of the owner may have a bearing on the quality of finish, if it is a childs Taiaha? Another thing it looks very much like a palm wood. The Maori did use Nikau palm wood for many things like flooring. I have not been able to get any images of Nikau palm wood timber. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 29th March 2012 at 08:17 PM.

30th March 2012, 01:06 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A more likely origin? Here we have a tanterlising look at much more likely items. Sadly not all can be seen but look at what are know as flat clubs, nos17 in the picture of Baining weapons New Britain from "Richard Parkinsin, Thirty Years In The South Seas" Also no2 in the second picture could be seen as a similar form perhaps a bit heavier. Whether the item is held as I show it is open to question. You could have your hand above the guard. However I would prefere to use it as a sword in my hand as shown, mainly I suspect because I learnt European fencing. It is all very well admiring big heavy club weapons but what about if you have to run, be light of foot and chase an enemy and then hit then. You would not be much good carrying a big club that would soon feel like running with a tree. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 30th March 2012 at 01:42 PM.

29th March 2012, 04:40 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS IS CLOSE TO THE DESIGN OF THE MAORI STAFF/SPEAR WEAPON TAHIATA. I SUSPECT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN USED IN THE SAME FASHON. THE FLAT ROUNDED END FOR STRIKING LIKE A SWORD BLADE AND THE POINTED HEAVY END FOR THRUSTING LIKE A SPEAR. THERE IS NO CARVING AND THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN FORM FROM THE MAORI WEAPON BUT THERE IS MUCH IN COMMON IN FORM AND DESIGN FOR FIGHTING STYLE. I DOUBT IT WAS GRIPPED IN THE FASHON SHOWN IN THE PHOTO TRY THE AREA OF THE SHAFT CLOSEST TO THE SPEAR END AND CHECK BALANCE OF THE WEAPON USING A TWO HANDED GRIP AS THE MAORI DO. THIS DESIGN IS FOR FAST BLOCKING AND STRIKING AS WELL AS THRUSTING WITH BOTH ENDS. NICE LOOKING CLUB PERHAPS A UNFINISHED MAORI CLUB OR ONE INFLUENCED BY THE MAORI FORM. IT IS SHORT FOR A TAHIATA PERHAPS ONE FOR A YOUNG MAN TO PRACTICE WITH HENCE NO CARVED DESIGNS. ITS PROBABLY A BIT LONG FOR PHILIPPINE CLUBS?.

29th March 2012, 07:08 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I too do or should I say did doubt this is a Taiaha. However I have found this New Zealand link which is exactly the same size as my item. http://www.antiquesreporter.com.au/i...-having-a-car/ I am still very unsure about the type of wood and the finish with a gum/resin lacquer. Also as Stu has mentioned the lack of decoration. I still think it is a weapon though.

29th March 2012, 08:41 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	After some research it seems that there were indeed shorter versions of Taiaha and Pouwhenua, also varriations on the Society, Austral and Cook Islands. So just perhaps it is rather a good thing.

29th March 2012, 09:43 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Gentlemen, As I understand it, taiahas don't have midribs. They are rounded in cross section, unlike Tim's club. REALLY unlike Tim's club. As for their ancestry, there are similar clubs here and there throughout Polynesia. It's an old design. From the pictures, it doesn't particularly look like palm wood, but I could be wrong. Palm wood has longitudinal fibers, but it doesn't have rays or growth rings I see evidence both of those in this specimen, which suggests to me that it's from a broadleaf tree. (Explanation growth rings should be obvious. Rays are lines of cells in the wood that connect the different growth rings, and run perpendicular both to the length of the trunk and the circumference of the growth rings, if that makes sense). I'm sticking with the Philippines on this one. It's a wooden sword. F

29th March 2012, 10:23 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Could also be Malay and surrounding islands. Thier stick fighting might not be known as eskrima but I would bet they are along the same lines? The lacquer makes me think it is not maori in anyway.

30th March 2012, 07:23 AM	#11
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	I agree with FEARN. The Taiaha does NOT have a ribbed handle so I do not think it is Maori but something else entirely. Stu

30th March 2012, 03:48 PM	#13
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, I don't think you're wrong to hold it as a sword. If that's the most comfortable way to hold it, that's probably the way it was meant to be held. F