Nafplio, Greece.

Sylektis · 16th February 2013, 07:16 PM

War museum and Folklore museum.

Sylektis · 16th February 2013, 07:49 PM

2

Battara · 16th February 2013, 07:54 PM

Wow - not my area but interesting stuff. Never seen a yataghan blade with a Cretan (?) bifurcated ivory hilt - I usually see these hilts on Cretan daggers.

Sylektis · 17th February 2013, 09:17 PM

2

napoleon · 17th February 2013, 10:22 PM

i have several of these in brass and silver are they all greek?

eftihis · 18th February 2013, 12:07 AM

Thanks you Syllektis for the nice photos, i have never had the change of being there.
I noticed 2 fake items in the displays, have you noticed them?

Sylektis · 18th February 2013, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Thanks you Syllektis for the nice photos, i have never had the change of being there.
I noticed 2 fake items in the displays, have you noticed them?

I am very curious to know, I just believe that some of them are simple of poor quality work.

eftihis · 19th February 2013, 11:38 PM

FAKE N1:
The "Cretan dagger style" yataghan. The silver scabbard's silverwork and style is totaly irrelevant to Crete. It is just a spare silver scabbard, where they put an enormus- unproportional, totaly useless (because of its monstrus size of "V" handle") newly made knife. I recognise the style of the maker, he is dead now, but he was active from 1930s up to late 70s in Chania.
So obviously the date "1815" on the blade is fake, and my guess is that it was particulary made to be bought by the museum.

FAKE N2:
The ivory hilted yataghan with the nicely repousse decorated silver scabbard (that has as a first design the face of the hero of the rovolution of 1821, General Karaiskakis).
If you look carefully at the point that the yataghan enters the scabbard you will see that the dimensions of the scabbard are not for this blade. It is a much "fatter" and wider scabbard. Also the yataghan does not go inside to "lock" and fit like a glove, as is the case in the original yataghans (even in the simple ones!)
Actually there is a funny story behind this yataghan. An antique seller in the 60s discovered a letter of Kapodistrias (maybe a true letter or a fake one), where the governor expressed his will to order 12 yataghans to give as a present to the 12 greatest heroes of the revolution. Then the governor was assasinated, and the story goes that the yataghans were never presented to their owners, and remained to the maker, untill they were discovered in the 60s!!! I am sure that what actually happened, is that this antique dealer found 12 scabbardless yataghans (Greece was full of them at that time), and ordered to a master silversmith to make 12 scabbards for them. He was a great silversmith, the chisseling is great, but he had never made scabbards before, so all of them are "fatter" and wider than the originals of the era, and none fits well with its blade!
The are other mistakes also on the scabbards, but i think i dont need to go to more detail, its obvious.
5 or 6 were bought by Averoff and are now in his museum at Metsovo. They are exhibited, and are in the museum cataloque...
Even Elgood has them in his book!

Battara · 20th February 2013, 12:50 AM

Thank you Eftihis.

I was right about never seeing a Cretan hilted yataghan - because they don't exist!

Thank you for the explanation and confirmation.

Atlantia · 20th February 2013, 11:50 PM

Excellent display, thanks for sharing.
I wish I could find more quality Greek weapons to add to my collection!
Interesting to see some stock Ottoman Turkish holster pistols in the display.

Sylektis · 23rd February 2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

FAKE N1:
The "Cretan dagger style" yataghan. The silver scabbard's silverwork and style is totaly irrelevant to Crete. It is just a spare silver scabbard, where they put an enormus- unproportional, totaly useless (because of its monstrus size of "V" handle") newly made knife. I recognise the style of the maker, he is dead now, but he was active from 1930s up to late 70s in Chania.
So obviously the date "1815" on the blade is fake, and my guess is that it was particulary made to be bought by the museum.

FAKE N2:
The ivory hilted yataghan with the nicely repousse decorated silver scabbard (that has as a first design the face of the hero of the rovolution of 1821, General Karaiskakis).
If you look carefully at the point that the yataghan enters the scabbard you will see that the dimensions of the scabbard are not for this blade. It is a much "fatter" and wider scabbard. Also the yataghan does not go inside to "lock" and fit like a glove, as is the case in the original yataghans (even in the simple ones!)
Actually there is a funny story behind this yataghan. An antique seller in the 60s discovered a letter of Kapodistrias (maybe a true letter or a fake one), where the governor expressed his will to order 12 yataghans to give as a present to the 12 greatest heroes of the revolution. Then the governor was assasinated, and the story goes that the yataghans were never presented to their owners, and remained to the maker, untill they were discovered in the 60s!!! I am sure that what actually happened, is that this antique dealer found 12 scabbardless yataghans (Greece was full of them at that time), and ordered to a master silversmith to make 12 scabbards for them. He was a great silversmith, the chisseling is great, but he had never made scabbards before, so all of them are "fatter" and wider than the originals of the era, and none fits well with its blade!
The are other mistakes also on the scabbards, but i think i dont need to go to more detail, its obvious.
5 or 6 were bought by Averoff and are now in his museum at Metsovo. They are exhibited, and are in the museum cataloque...
Even Elgood has them in his book!

Thank you very much Eftihis for your accurate observations, I have only two questions:
The first scabbard is original? Turkish or Greek?
I'm still not convinced about the chronology of creation of 16 (not 12) Kapodistrian scabbards. There are many Greek historians in this story like Minotos, Koukkou and of course Elgood, who (as you well you know) is very cautious in workshops attribution.
Don't forget that the Greek goldsmiths were interested much more for luxury than for usability of weapons especially in the years after the 1821 Revolution.
It would be useful to know when they have entered into these museums.
I post here another one from Benaki museum.

eftihis · 23rd February 2013, 12:07 PM

Hi Syllektis,
N1. I dont know where the scabbard with the cretan knife was made. But it doesnt remind me any usuall Greek work.

N2. The yataghan and scabbard from Benaki museum is obviously made by a different workshop than the one of NAfplio, and is much better nade, although the work is not top quality.
Well, we should all have in mind that when profit and money are involved there is the temtation for deception and thus we should not take seller's claims for granted...
It is indeed amusing how many balkan items are "baptised" Greek by the Greek antique sellers...And how often the same item is described as "Cretan" to a Cretan, and as "epirote" to an Epirote. This mentality has led even foreign sellers to re-name everything ottoman they have as "Greek", as if half the Ottoman weapons ever made, were made in Greece!!!
THe problem with wealthy collectors is that they are anxious to find the "unique named historical piece" that some seller is ready to give them, so they "bite" this meal immediately and without critican thought. Like a woman (or a man...) that is anxious to hear "i love you"!!!
The problem with "theoretical" writers like Elgood is that they take as granted the previous written documents, and the collectors claims without going deeper to the source for investigations.
And also i you need to be a collector or have handle yourself the weapons many times before you write about them! Not describe them from photos...
Now put yourself in the position of a hero of the 1821 revolution... HAve fought for at least a decade, survived so many times for battles, has handled the best weapons as booty, and you are going to present him in order to honor him a yataghan that does not fit well in the scabbard? A yataghan that the scabbard is so much fatter that makes it difficult put in the "selahi"?
And how is it possible to make such a bad shape scabbard at a time (1830)when the existing scabbard makers were actually the same people making glove fit scabbards at least untill 10 years ago for a "pasha"?
Also some technical details:
If they made these in JAnnina in 1830s then the scabbards would actually of the well known type of the work made there then (no need for more detail, i am syure you know what i mean). Also one of the yataghan blades have a handle of "KAllarytes" style but tottaly irrelevant scabbard.
Also in the opening part of the scabbards there should have been some "wire turned together" in 3-4 rows. HEre there is only a simple hammered pattern, like a very low work. And finally, if you look the iconography of the designs, there are totally irrelevant between them and incosistent with the era motifs...(a sort of "fishing" ship instead of a galley, a "lion and dragon" design from a cretan knife! etc)
These scabbards are inteed a great example of Yannina silverwork, but of the 1960s, and this maker was used to making presentation silver like bowls and plates, not scabbards....

Sylektis · 24th February 2013, 05:33 AM

I agreed Eftihis, fakes is a very bad story in this market, we all know how many weapons and other Lord's Byron objects the Greek collectors have...

But we can discuss about crooks in another thread.
I will finish now my post from Nafplio.
The last photos are very interesting.

16th February 2013, 07:16 PM	#1
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 136	Nafplio, Greece. War museum and Folklore museum. Attached Images

16th February 2013, 07:49 PM	#2
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 136	2 2 Attached Images

17th February 2013, 09:17 PM	#4
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 136	2 Attached Images

17th February 2013, 10:22 PM	#5
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	cartridge case i have several of these in brass and silver are they all greek?

24th February 2013, 05:33 AM	#13
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 136	I agreed Eftihis, fakes is a very bad story in this market, we all know how many weapons and other Lord's Byron objects the Greek collectors have... But we can discuss about crooks in another thread. I will finish now my post from Nafplio. The last photos are very interesting. Attached Images

16th February 2013, 07:54 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Wow - not my area but interesting stuff. Never seen a yataghan blade with a Cretan (?) bifurcated ivory hilt - I usually see these hilts on Cretan daggers.

18th February 2013, 12:07 AM	#6
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Thanks you Syllektis for the nice photos, i have never had the change of being there. I noticed 2 fake items in the displays, have you noticed them?

19th February 2013, 11:38 PM	#8
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	FAKE N1: The "Cretan dagger style" yataghan. The silver scabbard's silverwork and style is totaly irrelevant to Crete. It is just a spare silver scabbard, where they put an enormus- unproportional, totaly useless (because of its monstrus size of "V" handle") newly made knife. I recognise the style of the maker, he is dead now, but he was active from 1930s up to late 70s in Chania. So obviously the date "1815" on the blade is fake, and my guess is that it was particulary made to be bought by the museum. FAKE N2: The ivory hilted yataghan with the nicely repousse decorated silver scabbard (that has as a first design the face of the hero of the rovolution of 1821, General Karaiskakis). If you look carefully at the point that the yataghan enters the scabbard you will see that the dimensions of the scabbard are not for this blade. It is a much "fatter" and wider scabbard. Also the yataghan does not go inside to "lock" and fit like a glove, as is the case in the original yataghans (even in the simple ones!) Actually there is a funny story behind this yataghan. An antique seller in the 60s discovered a letter of Kapodistrias (maybe a true letter or a fake one), where the governor expressed his will to order 12 yataghans to give as a present to the 12 greatest heroes of the revolution. Then the governor was assasinated, and the story goes that the yataghans were never presented to their owners, and remained to the maker, untill they were discovered in the 60s!!! I am sure that what actually happened, is that this antique dealer found 12 scabbardless yataghans (Greece was full of them at that time), and ordered to a master silversmith to make 12 scabbards for them. He was a great silversmith, the chisseling is great, but he had never made scabbards before, so all of them are "fatter" and wider than the originals of the era, and none fits well with its blade! The are other mistakes also on the scabbards, but i think i dont need to go to more detail, its obvious. 5 or 6 were bought by Averoff and are now in his museum at Metsovo. They are exhibited, and are in the museum cataloque... Even Elgood has them in his book!

20th February 2013, 12:50 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Thank you Eftihis. I was right about never seeing a Cretan hilted yataghan - because they don't exist! Thank you for the explanation and confirmation.

20th February 2013, 11:50 PM	#10
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Excellent display, thanks for sharing. I wish I could find more quality Greek weapons to add to my collection! Interesting to see some stock Ottoman Turkish holster pistols in the display.

23rd February 2013, 12:07 PM	#12
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hi Syllektis, N1. I dont know where the scabbard with the cretan knife was made. But it doesnt remind me any usuall Greek work. N2. The yataghan and scabbard from Benaki museum is obviously made by a different workshop than the one of NAfplio, and is much better nade, although the work is not top quality. Well, we should all have in mind that when profit and money are involved there is the temtation for deception and thus we should not take seller's claims for granted... It is indeed amusing how many balkan items are "baptised" Greek by the Greek antique sellers...And how often the same item is described as "Cretan" to a Cretan, and as "epirote" to an Epirote. This mentality has led even foreign sellers to re-name everything ottoman they have as "Greek", as if half the Ottoman weapons ever made, were made in Greece!!! THe problem with wealthy collectors is that they are anxious to find the "unique named historical piece" that some seller is ready to give them, so they "bite" this meal immediately and without critican thought. Like a woman (or a man...) that is anxious to hear "i love you"!!! The problem with "theoretical" writers like Elgood is that they take as granted the previous written documents, and the collectors claims without going deeper to the source for investigations. And also i you need to be a collector or have handle yourself the weapons many times before you write about them! Not describe them from photos... Now put yourself in the position of a hero of the 1821 revolution... HAve fought for at least a decade, survived so many times for battles, has handled the best weapons as booty, and you are going to present him in order to honor him a yataghan that does not fit well in the scabbard? A yataghan that the scabbard is so much fatter that makes it difficult put in the "selahi"? And how is it possible to make such a bad shape scabbard at a time (1830)when the existing scabbard makers were actually the same people making glove fit scabbards at least untill 10 years ago for a "pasha"? Also some technical details: If they made these in JAnnina in 1830s then the scabbards would actually of the well known type of the work made there then (no need for more detail, i am syure you know what i mean). Also one of the yataghan blades have a handle of "KAllarytes" style but tottaly irrelevant scabbard. Also in the opening part of the scabbards there should have been some "wire turned together" in 3-4 rows. HEre there is only a simple hammered pattern, like a very low work. And finally, if you look the iconography of the designs, there are totally irrelevant between them and incosistent with the era motifs...(a sort of "fishing" ship instead of a galley, a "lion and dragon" design from a cretan knife! etc) These scabbards are inteed a great example of Yannina silverwork, but of the 1960s, and this maker was used to making presentation silver like bowls and plates, not scabbards....