10 luk blade ?

asomotif · 8th January 2009, 11:55 PM

In the invincible krises 2, the author shows a 10 luk keris.

I bought a small keris with a blade that appers to be very old, or at least very often cleaned and restained

is this a 10 luk blade ?

David · 9th January 2009, 12:01 AM

AS you point out, it is an old blade with a bit of erosion. It is quite possible that the 11th luk wore away.

Battara · 9th January 2009, 05:48 AM

I think you have a good point, David (get it?

). I think at the tip there is evidence of an 11th luk.

Alam Shah · 9th January 2009, 01:44 PM

Agreed guys, originally 11 luks,

(Battara, I got it

).

I have a blade of similar material.. but 5 luks.. if the luks were shorter, it might be missing as well.
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p32027860.html

asomotif · 9th January 2009, 05:40 PM

Thanks for the comments.

Any idea on how old this blade might be.

Dajak · 9th January 2009, 05:49 PM

Might be 10/30 years this one heavely acid to make it look older .

Ben

asomotif · 9th January 2009, 06:03 PM

Bali again ?

Dajak · 9th January 2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Bali again ?

Maybe coffee or thee to darken it like your skull

Ben

David · 9th January 2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Might be 10/30 years this one heavely acid to make it look older .

Well Ben, anything is possible, but i don't get the impression that this is an artificially aged blade. What makes you think so?

David · 9th January 2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Maybe coffee or thee to darken it like your skull

Ben and Willem, i would say that "in jokes" between the two of you are probably best kept to PM conversation, lest we all get the impression that the two of you don't really like each other.

Dajak · 9th January 2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well Ben, anything is possible, but i don't get the impression that this is an artificially aged blade. What makes you think so?

The blade is very bad misused with wateracid they use in an car battery to hide the real age we see this a lot mostly bring back from dutch army guys in the 50 to make it look better put in an decent scabbard an nice hilt on it .

It also looks that they use kachelpotlood on it I don t now the Enghlis worth for it

If an kris that is real nice one it has better treathment so there is nothing
to hide and no use off aggressive acid needed .

Here an pic off 2 kris that are recently washed on the right way

Ben

asomotif · 9th January 2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:

off 2 kris that are recently washed on the right way

Ben, Pretty but slightly rusty examples. not relevant in this thread imho.

Does anybody have any serious comment on the age of this washed down 11/10 luk blade ? maybe on basis of dapur ?

ganjawulung · 9th January 2009, 11:52 PM

Agree with David, Battara and Alamshah... A "sabuk inten" (dhapur), 11 waves but the tip is a little bit worn away.

GANJAWULUNG

Dajak · 10th January 2009, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Ben, Pretty but slightly rusty examples. not relevant in this thread imho.

Does anybody have any serious comment on the age of this washed down 11/10 luk blade ? maybe on basis of dapur ?

The relevant is to show that your kris is worn away and even that an rusty kris don't have the pitting and black made color on the kris like yours and that it could be that your kris had one wave more.

Ben

David · 10th January 2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

The relevant is to show that your kris is worn away and even that an rusty kris don't have the pitting and black made color on the kris like yours and that it could be that your kris had one wave more.

Well Ben, i also think i see a touch of residual rust on your properly washed ivory hilted blade.

I think we are all aware that new blades often get artificial age treatments, but frankly i personally find it rather difficult to tell based on the photo that Willem has provided. I have a few old soldiers in my collection that have pitted blades (and i am sure they have real age) so i don't think that is a fair indicator of deception. If i were to assume this is indeed an old blade i would say that it has a pamor made with non-contrasting materials which would account for the dark color of the blade over all. New blades are artificially aged for different reasons. Sometimes it is to deceive, but often it is just because it is the style, a look which is trying to be achieved. Of course, when that is the case the blade would not be eroded as badly as this one.
Since this is not a particularly rare or valuable pamor or dhapur (unless i am missing something), i see little reason why someone would purposefully do this much damage to it to try to pass it off as old. Over-washed, worn out blades like this don't usually get too much money and if it was recently made i would image the maker could get just as much if not more if the blade were pristine with less work involved. But then perhaps i am speaking from a logic that just does not apply.

Dajak · 11th January 2009, 07:45 AM

Hi David the money they get for it would be a reason they have to work 12 hours for when they get good money 500,000.00 till 600,000.00 an month.
30 till 40 euro an month if you have an good job so they do everything to make money I see there at one store at least 500 new made Balinese kris blade from very good quality that it was for me difficult to see are they old or not .

He offered me an nice Balinese kris golden Handle with gemstone Ivory scabbard mouth golden half open pendok old blade (it wasn't an old blade but they made it look old with an very nice pamor) for 2500.00 dollar it was so nice made that I was thinking off buying it but I did not want to have trouble with the dutch customs when I get back about the ivory so I leave it there.

They can make real good stuff overthere but also the make junk for the tourist.

The problem is that the tourist buy the junk stuff so they will produce it .

The hilt is tridagna not ivory the blade was very rusty when I did get it just cleaned a litte bit before the first wash after the next wash it will dissapear .

Ben

Henk · 11th January 2009, 10:55 AM

I feel a lot of competition in the discussions between these gentlemen.

I cann't say the keris of Dajak has been properly washed. If a keris is properly washed all the rust is removed and the blade is completely white and clean before it is touched with warangan for the etching. When etched with warangan in the right way the pamor shows up and the keris can be left alone for years if the blade is oiled regular.
Very nice blades but not so old in my opinion as the blade Asomotif showed us.
I've seen more very old blades eaten away by the acid used during ages. It has also to do with the iron used for the blade. The later keris where made of better quality iron often from European origin, like bicycles and tools.

The keris of Asomotif is a very nice and old 11 luk keris. The dress is much more newer than the blade itself. But the dress has also age. I think this is a very nice old piece.

By the way, luk on keris are always an uneven number. Sometimes you have to look closely for it but it is always present. Also on this blade.

Dajak · 11th January 2009, 12:12 PM

Henk etching is mostly ruin the blade there are a lot off different ways to wash an kris .

The problem today is that most people think that they now how to wash an kris that is why so much look like eaten away.

And it looks that telling how old an kris is be difficult for you I invite you to come to one off the meetings of the Dutch kris club and maybe you can learn something about how to wash and not to wash an kris also about age .

The date off my kriss is around 1700

I see a lot off krissen that are more than 600 years old but not eaten away
because they washed properly .

If you wanna learn something about the way let me now I send you the date and time and invite you there . (It is not possible to come there with out an invatation from an member)

It is better there to discus about the kris and age and washing also they can show you things only normally be seen in museums only if you interested .

Ben

Kiai Carita · 11th January 2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi David the money they get for it would be a reason they have to work 12 hours for when they get good money 500,000.00 till 600,000.00 an month.
30 till 40 euro an month if you have an good job so they do everything to make money ......
Ben

Ben, I don't know where or when you got these figures, but just FYI, the amount you wrote there is way beneath the minimum wages here. If currently someone is paying those wages, they should be reported.

I live in a village, 45 km from the nearest town. Here, a man working in the rice fields makes Rp 900.000 / month. With a few chickens ducks and goats, he can net well over Rp 1 milion / month. Working in the fields is the lowest paid job you can find.

A baber, makes Rp 3 million a month. A builder makes Rp 1.5 million a month. A carpenter, makes up to Rp 3 million a month. These wages are usually with one or two meals included. People pay next to nothing for accomodation and taxes, so they take home most of their earnings. The bigest expenditure for village people is for "gifts" (contributions) for social purpuses; weddings, circumcissions, deaths, births, thanksgivings, visiting the sick etc.

There is no good job that pays 500-600 thousand a month. Even beggars make more than that!

Dajak · 11th January 2009, 05:50 PM

Take a look in Sanur there is an restaurant that is from an Belgian guy he pays this and have the shield outside RONALD is the name what he pays some restaurants there pay even less .

Name off the street Jl. Danau Tamblingan in Sanur

The upper side off this was aan woodcarver who have to close his shop because he could not pay the rent anymore I see him for years there maybe you can help him to an job .

So you know now what to do.

Ben

David · 11th January 2009, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

The hilt is tridagna not ivory the blade was very rusty when I did get it just cleaned a litte bit before the first wash after the next wash it will dissapear .

Thanks Ben, your close-up photo does in fact reveal your hilt to be tridagna. Sort of an aside to the topic, but nice to know anyway.

I still am not convinced that Willem keris has been artificially aged based on your comments. The obvious fact that many new keris are treated this way does not prove that this is one of them. Many keris are mistreated in their long lifetimes and don't look exactly pristine, or even as good as your examples, after many years of washing and staining.
That doesn't mean that there is absolutely no possibility that Willem's keris is a new, aged keris. The folks who do this stuff have become very good at it, no doubt. I just don't see how you or anyone else could possibly be as sure about this as you seem to be based solely on these on-line photos.

A. G. Maisey · 11th January 2009, 10:38 PM

Ben, I cannot challenge the wage rates you quote for Sanur, as I do not know the hours worked, or other conditions attached to the employment, but I can endorse the wage rates quoted by Kiai Carita.

It is my understanding that Kiai lives somewhere near Klaten. Klaten is in Central Jawa, near Solo, and the wage rates in the Solo area are amongst the lowest in Indonesia. If you looked at the same wage rates as applicable to say, Malang, or Bandung, these rates would be higher. If you compared these rates with Jakarta or Surabaya, they would be higher still.

My son in law is a middle manager with a major pharmaceutical company. He has recently returned to Solo, but when he was in Jakarta, his salary was in the range of RP. 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 per month, in addition he had a company car and his house was provided rent free. Since he has returned to Solo, which is the home town of both himself and his company, he has lost the company car and the free accomodation.

At the other end of the scale you have the example of a widow of a public service clerk who receives around RP. 1,200,000 per month as a pension.

Or a maintenance mechanic in a textile factory who receives around RP.1,500,000 per month.

However, it is absolutely correct that for ordinary working people in Indonesia there is always a shortage of available cash. Some necessities of life are very cheap in Indonesia, but other things are often expensive when compared to costs in developed countries. Additionally, there are what could perhaps be called "social expenses" to be met; these expenses are ones that people in developed countries do not have to meet.

Then there is the fact that since the beginning of recovery from the economic meltdown of a few years back, inflation has taken off again and is currently running at 11%.

So yes, there is a constant struggle to try to raise funds.

In respect of the possible age of the blade under discussion.

This is an old blade. There are many indicators that confirm this, such as the blade cross section, form of sogokan, form of blumbangan, pattern of erosion of pawakan, grain of material. There is no doubt at all that this is an old blade.

Yes, blades are artificially aged. This is normally done for aesthetic reasons, not to attempt to deceive a potential buyer.The biggest market for modern blades in Indonesia is the local market, purchase by tourists and export to other countries accounts for only a very small percentage of total production. Local buyers have access to the knowledge needed to differentiate between recently produced blades and genuinely old blades. It is pointless for any seller of keris in Indonesia to take a low quality recent blade and attempt to pass it off as a low quality old blade. Apart from anything else, there is no commercial advantage in this. The value of the recent blade, un-aged, and the badly eroded old blade is not so different.

Yes, very low quality blades are produced, but the target market for these very low quality blades is the local market in Indonesia:- people who need a keris for dress purposes, and whose means are limited.The so-called "tourist market" is so small it is not a consideration.

It is a different story with very high quality recent blades. I have seen, and I know of , instances where recently produced very high quality blades have been artificially aged with the deliberate intention to mislead the buyer into thinking he was buying something old. However, the collector in the western world need never worry about encountering this type of thing, for the simple reason that western collectors will not pay the price for a keris that these high level forgeries command, thus, western collectors never even get to see this type of keris, let alone be offered the opportunity to buy.

I have always found it difficult to understand how a blade can have an even number of luk. Since the luk count must finish on the same side that it started---which is the first luk just above the gandik--- it is impossible for any count to finish in an even number. But still, many people do support this even luk idea, and I have seen blades, and I own one myself, where there is effectively no obvious luk that would take the count to the required uneven number, however, this is not relevent:- if the luk are counted correctly, that is, by starting on the first above the gandik, and finishing the count on that same side of the blade, the luk count will always be an uneven number, whether the last luk is obvious or not.

The way luk are counted is not a personal, individual, decision. There is a correct way to do it, and many incorrect ways. Done the correct way, the result will always be an uneven number of luk. This uneven number is required, because the keris is a male symbol, and as such it must have a male number of luk. Even numbers are female in character.

asomotif · 12th January 2009, 01:55 AM

Dear Alan and others,

Thanks as allways for the abundance of knowledge and facts.
Very educating. The 10 luk story is than an European idea ?

I just liked the blade for its simplicity, the dress was not too recent and fitted well. And at Eur 50 (approx Usd 60) I did not get the impression I was paying too much. (that is in The Netherlands of course)

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 12th January 2009, 06:38 AM

No Willem, the idea of the possibility of an even number of luk is not necessarily European, I have encountered people in Jawa who will also count an even number of luk, but just because somebody is Javanese, or Indonesian, doesn't mean they know much about keris, and even some people who could be considered to be keris literate could have a different opinion to the one I have put forward in respect of even and uneven luk. The only problem with the concept of an even number of luk is that it is logically insupportable, but then logic has never stood in the way of anything to do with keris.

8th January 2009, 11:55 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	10 luk blade ? In the invincible krises 2, the author shows a 10 luk keris. I bought a small keris with a blade that appers to be very old, or at least very often cleaned and restained is this a 10 luk blade ? Attached Images

9th January 2009, 11:52 PM	#13
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Agree with David, Battara and Alamshah... A "sabuk inten" (dhapur), 11 waves but the tip is a little bit worn away. GANJAWULUNG Last edited by ganjawulung; 9th January 2009 at 11:56 PM. Reason: mispelled word

11th January 2009, 07:45 AM	#16
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi David the money they get for it would be a reason they have to work 12 hours for when they get good money 500,000.00 till 600,000.00 an month. 30 till 40 euro an month if you have an good job so they do everything to make money I see there at one store at least 500 new made Balinese kris blade from very good quality that it was for me difficult to see are they old or not . He offered me an nice Balinese kris golden Handle with gemstone Ivory scabbard mouth golden half open pendok old blade (it wasn't an old blade but they made it look old with an very nice pamor) for 2500.00 dollar it was so nice made that I was thinking off buying it but I did not want to have trouble with the dutch customs when I get back about the ivory so I leave it there. They can make real good stuff overthere but also the make junk for the tourist. The problem is that the tourist buy the junk stuff so they will produce it . The hilt is tridagna not ivory the blade was very rusty when I did get it just cleaned a litte bit before the first wash after the next wash it will dissapear . Ben Attached Images

11th January 2009, 05:50 PM	#20
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Take a look in Sanur there is an restaurant that is from an Belgian guy he pays this and have the shield outside RONALD is the name what he pays some restaurants there pay even less . Name off the street Jl. Danau Tamblingan in Sanur The upper side off this was aan woodcarver who have to close his shop because he could not pay the rent anymore I see him for years there maybe you can help him to an job . So you know now what to do. Ben Last edited by Dajak; 11th January 2009 at 06:10 PM.

9th January 2009, 12:01 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	AS you point out, it is an old blade with a bit of erosion. It is quite possible that the 11th luk wore away.

9th January 2009, 05:48 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	I think you have a good point, David (get it? ). I think at the tip there is evidence of an 11th luk.

9th January 2009, 01:44 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Agreed guys, originally 11 luks, (Battara, I got it ). I have a blade of similar material.. but 5 luks.. if the luks were shorter, it might be missing as well. http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p32027860.html

9th January 2009, 05:40 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Thanks for the comments. Any idea on how old this blade might be.

9th January 2009, 05:49 PM	#6
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Might be 10/30 years this one heavely acid to make it look older . Ben

9th January 2009, 06:03 PM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Bali again ?

11th January 2009, 10:55 AM	#17
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I feel a lot of competition in the discussions between these gentlemen. I cann't say the keris of Dajak has been properly washed. If a keris is properly washed all the rust is removed and the blade is completely white and clean before it is touched with warangan for the etching. When etched with warangan in the right way the pamor shows up and the keris can be left alone for years if the blade is oiled regular. Very nice blades but not so old in my opinion as the blade Asomotif showed us. I've seen more very old blades eaten away by the acid used during ages. It has also to do with the iron used for the blade. The later keris where made of better quality iron often from European origin, like bicycles and tools. The keris of Asomotif is a very nice and old 11 luk keris. The dress is much more newer than the blade itself. But the dress has also age. I think this is a very nice old piece. By the way, luk on keris are always an uneven number. Sometimes you have to look closely for it but it is always present. Also on this blade.

11th January 2009, 12:12 PM	#18
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Henk etching is mostly ruin the blade there are a lot off different ways to wash an kris . The problem today is that most people think that they now how to wash an kris that is why so much look like eaten away. And it looks that telling how old an kris is be difficult for you I invite you to come to one off the meetings of the Dutch kris club and maybe you can learn something about how to wash and not to wash an kris also about age . The date off my kriss is around 1700 I see a lot off krissen that are more than 600 years old but not eaten away because they washed properly . If you wanna learn something about the way let me now I send you the date and time and invite you there . (It is not possible to come there with out an invatation from an member) It is better there to discus about the kris and age and washing also they can show you things only normally be seen in museums only if you interested . Ben

11th January 2009, 10:38 PM	#22
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Ben, I cannot challenge the wage rates you quote for Sanur, as I do not know the hours worked, or other conditions attached to the employment, but I can endorse the wage rates quoted by Kiai Carita. It is my understanding that Kiai lives somewhere near Klaten. Klaten is in Central Jawa, near Solo, and the wage rates in the Solo area are amongst the lowest in Indonesia. If you looked at the same wage rates as applicable to say, Malang, or Bandung, these rates would be higher. If you compared these rates with Jakarta or Surabaya, they would be higher still. My son in law is a middle manager with a major pharmaceutical company. He has recently returned to Solo, but when he was in Jakarta, his salary was in the range of RP. 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 per month, in addition he had a company car and his house was provided rent free. Since he has returned to Solo, which is the home town of both himself and his company, he has lost the company car and the free accomodation. At the other end of the scale you have the example of a widow of a public service clerk who receives around RP. 1,200,000 per month as a pension. Or a maintenance mechanic in a textile factory who receives around RP.1,500,000 per month. However, it is absolutely correct that for ordinary working people in Indonesia there is always a shortage of available cash. Some necessities of life are very cheap in Indonesia, but other things are often expensive when compared to costs in developed countries. Additionally, there are what could perhaps be called "social expenses" to be met; these expenses are ones that people in developed countries do not have to meet. Then there is the fact that since the beginning of recovery from the economic meltdown of a few years back, inflation has taken off again and is currently running at 11%. So yes, there is a constant struggle to try to raise funds. In respect of the possible age of the blade under discussion. This is an old blade. There are many indicators that confirm this, such as the blade cross section, form of sogokan, form of blumbangan, pattern of erosion of pawakan, grain of material. There is no doubt at all that this is an old blade. Yes, blades are artificially aged. This is normally done for aesthetic reasons, not to attempt to deceive a potential buyer.The biggest market for modern blades in Indonesia is the local market, purchase by tourists and export to other countries accounts for only a very small percentage of total production. Local buyers have access to the knowledge needed to differentiate between recently produced blades and genuinely old blades. It is pointless for any seller of keris in Indonesia to take a low quality recent blade and attempt to pass it off as a low quality old blade. Apart from anything else, there is no commercial advantage in this. The value of the recent blade, un-aged, and the badly eroded old blade is not so different. Yes, very low quality blades are produced, but the target market for these very low quality blades is the local market in Indonesia:- people who need a keris for dress purposes, and whose means are limited.The so-called "tourist market" is so small it is not a consideration. It is a different story with very high quality recent blades. I have seen, and I know of , instances where recently produced very high quality blades have been artificially aged with the deliberate intention to mislead the buyer into thinking he was buying something old. However, the collector in the western world need never worry about encountering this type of thing, for the simple reason that western collectors will not pay the price for a keris that these high level forgeries command, thus, western collectors never even get to see this type of keris, let alone be offered the opportunity to buy. I have always found it difficult to understand how a blade can have an even number of luk. Since the luk count must finish on the same side that it started---which is the first luk just above the gandik--- it is impossible for any count to finish in an even number. But still, many people do support this even luk idea, and I have seen blades, and I own one myself, where there is effectively no obvious luk that would take the count to the required uneven number, however, this is not relevent:- if the luk are counted correctly, that is, by starting on the first above the gandik, and finishing the count on that same side of the blade, the luk count will always be an uneven number, whether the last luk is obvious or not. The way luk are counted is not a personal, individual, decision. There is a correct way to do it, and many incorrect ways. Done the correct way, the result will always be an uneven number of luk. This uneven number is required, because the keris is a male symbol, and as such it must have a male number of luk. Even numbers are female in character.

12th January 2009, 01:55 AM	#23
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Dear Alan and others, Thanks as allways for the abundance of knowledge and facts. Very educating. The 10 luk story is than an European idea ? I just liked the blade for its simplicity, the dress was not too recent and fitted well. And at Eur 50 (approx Usd 60) I did not get the impression I was paying too much. (that is in The Netherlands of course) Best regards, Willem

12th January 2009, 06:38 AM	#24
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	No Willem, the idea of the possibility of an even number of luk is not necessarily European, I have encountered people in Jawa who will also count an even number of luk, but just because somebody is Javanese, or Indonesian, doesn't mean they know much about keris, and even some people who could be considered to be keris literate could have a different opinion to the one I have put forward in respect of even and uneven luk. The only problem with the concept of an even number of luk is that it is logically insupportable, but then logic has never stood in the way of anything to do with keris.