saber engraving

Perkun · 1st April 2005, 06:03 AM

Wolviex, I am particularly interested in your opinion, have you ever encountered similar ornamentation on any sabers in your museum?

Tim Simmons · 1st April 2005, 08:48 AM

That is Latin in the first picture,the second is Roman Catholic sacred heart.Tim

wolviex · 1st April 2005, 09:12 AM

What a nice sabre!!! Very Polish but Russian

. The handle looks like of Russian sabre model 1809. Following Czerwinski and Dudek book about sabres used by Polish soldiers, handles like this were made for and by Polish officers from ca. 1815 to 1830, often without fabric marks. Sometimes, of course fabric Russian sabres were in use also.

For me, the most important is the blade you’ve showed us here. Cartouches are no doubt engraved or etched in the 18th century. These were very popular, I think from the half to the end of the century. Latin inscription “Pro deo et Patria” (“For God and Motherland”) seems to be Polish (although it seems to me, but no sure, that sometimes you can meet such inscriptions on Hungarian blades too). Well, to be honest, for me, it’s 99 % Polish, especially when it is fitted to the Russian handle.

We can be sure this sabre belonged to one of the Polish officers, during the years 1815-30. We can guess it was used during the November Uprising in 1831. Blade of old Polish sabre was refitted, and we can suppose, because of the great patriotic exultation – inscription like this one, were of great importance for those who were fighting for Polish freedom then.

I haven’t much time today, so I can’t dig in the museum’s magazines. It’s hard to answer, do we have such sabres like this. There all are unique. I can tell no, we haven’t because there is no sabre in Russian fittings, and “Pro deo and Patria” blade. I can tell yes, because we’ve got few Russian sabres with old Polish blades. There is also Austrian sabre with blade where you can find such inscription, but I can’t remember now, is it identical or not. I found similar blade in sabre like this:

Perkun · 1st April 2005, 08:16 PM

Hi Wolviex,
Thanks for the answer. This is exactly why I bought this saber

Yes, Polish sabers from that period are all unique, I have 3 of them, all are different. The one on the photos has a handle identicalto another one that has an old multi fullered hussar blade mounted in it.
The photos you attached are great, thanks, I think it is the one I missed on ebay some months ago

Oh, well....

Perkun · 2nd April 2005, 05:41 AM

One more thing, you are also correct in suspecting it took part in the Uprising of 1831. I found it in England where many participants went to exile.
This saber has a heavy duty steel scabbard that came to me on a similar saber but fit that one only loosely. It however fits this one like a glove!
Surprisingly the scabbard has no suspension rings at all. I always found it curious.

tom hyle · 2nd April 2005, 10:13 PM

Could we see the scabbard? I wonder if it might have fitted into a leather or fabric "rig"; perhaps a sabreteche; spelling? A flat squarish bag that hangs below a sword? For my part, I think it just sounds like it'd make a great sheild

Perkun · 4th April 2005, 02:45 AM

Hi Tom, here is the scabbard.

Tim Simmons · 6th April 2005, 06:32 PM

Is a Latin motto on a Russian blade, a French influence on Russian officer class more than Prussian?Tim

wolviex · 6th April 2005, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Is a Latin motto on a Russian blade, a French influence on Russian officer class more than Prussian?Tim

Blade is refitted to the russian hilt, and probably is a little older. It's hard to say for sure, but there is conjecture this blades were made in Germany (Solingen?) just as Pandur's ones and "Vivat hussar's ones". In Poland used as a patriotic. There was a great French influence all over the Eastern Europe. Don't mind Poland, which fought side by side with Napoleon, but French was court language in Russia for example.

Perkun: is there anything on the back of the blade? - I mean opposite side to the edge.

Regards!

Perkun · 7th April 2005, 04:45 AM

Hi, Here is the spine of the blade. Not a tipical smal scroll.

wolviex · 7th April 2005, 10:01 PM

Thank you Perkun for this photo! This is just what I expected to see - an arrow on the back of the blade! On my sabre is the same thing! And this mean (except the other engravings) our blades are from the same workshop - no doubt.

The problem is: WHAT IS IT - THIS ARROW. In some old catalogs blades with such arrows (on sabres, hangers, pallashes) are described as Solingen - does anybody have any Idea?

Perkun · 8th April 2005, 07:43 PM

Hi Wolviex,
Perhaps you are correct thinking it a Solingen manufacture, I suspect that too, but one thing troubles me, The Sacred Heart is a Catholic symbol, Germany was Protestant, would they have used this symbol even on export blades given strong antipathy between the two religions at that time?
Wouldn't a Polish maker be more likely? In that case it would have to be one of the larger, established manufacturies as the quality of the blade is very good.

I think it is safe to assume that the engraving was done at the time of manufacture, the blades are identical in shape, and so are the engravings.

Tim Simmons · 8th April 2005, 07:53 PM

I believe most of southern Germany is Roman Catholic,Somebody will soon tell us.Tim

1st April 2005, 06:03 AM	#1
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	saber engraving Wolviex, I am particularly interested in your opinion, have you ever encountered similar ornamentation on any sabers in your museum? Attached Images

1st April 2005, 09:12 AM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	What a nice sabre!!! Very Polish but Russian . The handle looks like of Russian sabre model 1809. Following Czerwinski and Dudek book about sabres used by Polish soldiers, handles like this were made for and by Polish officers from ca. 1815 to 1830, often without fabric marks. Sometimes, of course fabric Russian sabres were in use also. For me, the most important is the blade you’ve showed us here. Cartouches are no doubt engraved or etched in the 18th century. These were very popular, I think from the half to the end of the century. Latin inscription “Pro deo et Patria” (“For God and Motherland”) seems to be Polish (although it seems to me, but no sure, that sometimes you can meet such inscriptions on Hungarian blades too). Well, to be honest, for me, it’s 99 % Polish, especially when it is fitted to the Russian handle. We can be sure this sabre belonged to one of the Polish officers, during the years 1815-30. We can guess it was used during the November Uprising in 1831. Blade of old Polish sabre was refitted, and we can suppose, because of the great patriotic exultation – inscription like this one, were of great importance for those who were fighting for Polish freedom then. I haven’t much time today, so I can’t dig in the museum’s magazines. It’s hard to answer, do we have such sabres like this. There all are unique. I can tell no, we haven’t because there is no sabre in Russian fittings, and “Pro deo and Patria” blade. I can tell yes, because we’ve got few Russian sabres with old Polish blades. There is also Austrian sabre with blade where you can find such inscription, but I can’t remember now, is it identical or not. I found similar blade in sabre like this: Attached Images

4th April 2005, 02:45 AM	#7
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Hi Tom, here is the scabbard. Attached Images

7th April 2005, 04:45 AM	#10
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Hi, Here is the spine of the blade. Not a tipical smal scroll. Attached Images

7th April 2005, 10:01 PM	#11
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	ARROWS Thank you Perkun for this photo! This is just what I expected to see - an arrow on the back of the blade! On my sabre is the same thing! And this mean (except the other engravings) our blades are from the same workshop - no doubt. The problem is: WHAT IS IT - THIS ARROW. In some old catalogs blades with such arrows (on sabres, hangers, pallashes) are described as Solingen - does anybody have any Idea?

1st April 2005, 08:48 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That is Latin in the first picture,the second is Roman Catholic sacred heart.Tim

1st April 2005, 08:16 PM	#4
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Hi Wolviex, Thanks for the answer. This is exactly why I bought this saber Yes, Polish sabers from that period are all unique, I have 3 of them, all are different. The one on the photos has a handle identicalto another one that has an old multi fullered hussar blade mounted in it. The photos you attached are great, thanks, I think it is the one I missed on ebay some months ago Oh, well....

2nd April 2005, 05:41 AM	#5
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	One more thing, you are also correct in suspecting it took part in the Uprising of 1831. I found it in England where many participants went to exile. This saber has a heavy duty steel scabbard that came to me on a similar saber but fit that one only loosely. It however fits this one like a glove! Surprisingly the scabbard has no suspension rings at all. I always found it curious.

2nd April 2005, 10:13 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Could we see the scabbard? I wonder if it might have fitted into a leather or fabric "rig"; perhaps a sabreteche; spelling? A flat squarish bag that hangs below a sword? For my part, I think it just sounds like it'd make a great sheild

6th April 2005, 06:32 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Is a Latin motto on a Russian blade, a French influence on Russian officer class more than Prussian?Tim

8th April 2005, 07:43 PM	#12
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Hi Wolviex, Perhaps you are correct thinking it a Solingen manufacture, I suspect that too, but one thing troubles me, The Sacred Heart is a Catholic symbol, Germany was Protestant, would they have used this symbol even on export blades given strong antipathy between the two religions at that time? Wouldn't a Polish maker be more likely? In that case it would have to be one of the larger, established manufacturies as the quality of the blade is very good. I think it is safe to assume that the engraving was done at the time of manufacture, the blades are identical in shape, and so are the engravings.

8th April 2005, 07:53 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I believe most of southern Germany is Roman Catholic,Somebody will soon tell us.Tim