Your thoughts on this cup hilt rapier or broadsword?

werecow · 17th August 2024, 04:09 PM

I would love your thoughts on this rather worn but in my opinion still quite pretty cup hilt sword. It was sold from Portugal as a 17th century Iberian cup hilt rapier, as found in the wars fought by the Spanish against the Portuguese and the Dutch. The broadsword blade reads Gio Knegt / In Solingen and has no other marks on the ricasso. The grip is either bone or antler. The cross is welded to the cup. The pommel is rounded octagonal in shape.

I am specifically wondering whether this particular style of hilt, with the little curl on the side branch connecting to the cross, can be traced to a particular place of manufacture and/or period.

Also, I would like to learn as much as I can from this sword, so please let me know if you agree with the following assessment:

I suspect it is an old composite piece. Either that, or the grip or at least the ferrules have been replaced at some point; the ferrules look rather clean compared to the rest of the sword and the ricasso is relatively crisp whereas both the cup and sharp blade section are rather pitted.

The disparity between the wear on the ricasso and the blade near the shoulders is not huge so I am not entirely sure about whether this is a meaningful disparity, but let's assume that it is going forward. I am curious what would cause the blade to wear so much more than the ricasso (and cup). If the blade rusted inside a scabbard while mounted on a different hilt, then the patina would make some sense. That would suggest that someone put the already pitted blade together with an already pitted cup and pommel, which would only make sense if the intent was to deceive the buyer. However the peen also looks lightly pitted, the grip looks to have some age, and while they are not as worn as the rest of the sword there is also some patina on the ferrules, so I suspect it was not put together all that recently.

In spite of it being a potential composite, I quite like this sword. The blade is pretty thin (and springy) so it feels very light for the size and width. It's still pretty sharp and the construction feels solid.

Some stats:
Weight: 933 grams
Length: 102 cm
Grip length including ferrules but not the pommel: 8 cm
Depth of the cup measured up to but not including the cross: 5.5 cm
Cup width: 13 x 13.7 cm
Width of the cross: 28.5 cm
Blade length from the cup: 85 cm
Blade width at the shoulder: 4 cm
Blade thickness at the shoulder: 6 mm
Blade thickness 1 cm before the tip: 1 mm
POB: 6.5 cm from the cup

17th August 2024, 04:09 PM	#1
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 477	Your thoughts on this cup hilt rapier or broadsword? I would love your thoughts on this rather worn but in my opinion still quite pretty cup hilt sword. It was sold from Portugal as a 17th century Iberian cup hilt rapier, as found in the wars fought by the Spanish against the Portuguese and the Dutch. The broadsword blade reads Gio Knegt / In Solingen and has no other marks on the ricasso. The grip is either bone or antler. The cross is welded to the cup. The pommel is rounded octagonal in shape. I am specifically wondering whether this particular style of hilt, with the little curl on the side branch connecting to the cross, can be traced to a particular place of manufacture and/or period. Also, I would like to learn as much as I can from this sword, so please let me know if you agree with the following assessment: I suspect it is an old composite piece. Either that, or the grip or at least the ferrules have been replaced at some point; the ferrules look rather clean compared to the rest of the sword and the ricasso is relatively crisp whereas both the cup and sharp blade section are rather pitted. The disparity between the wear on the ricasso and the blade near the shoulders is not huge so I am not entirely sure about whether this is a meaningful disparity, but let's assume that it is going forward. I am curious what would cause the blade to wear so much more than the ricasso (and cup). If the blade rusted inside a scabbard while mounted on a different hilt, then the patina would make some sense. That would suggest that someone put the already pitted blade together with an already pitted cup and pommel, which would only make sense if the intent was to deceive the buyer. However the peen also looks lightly pitted, the grip looks to have some age, and while they are not as worn as the rest of the sword there is also some patina on the ferrules, so I suspect it was not put together all that recently. In spite of it being a potential composite, I quite like this sword. The blade is pretty thin (and springy) so it feels very light for the size and width. It's still pretty sharp and the construction feels solid. Some stats: Weight: 933 grams Length: 102 cm Grip length including ferrules but not the pommel: 8 cm Depth of the cup measured up to but not including the cross: 5.5 cm Cup width: 13 x 13.7 cm Width of the cross: 28.5 cm Blade length from the cup: 85 cm Blade width at the shoulder: 4 cm Blade thickness at the shoulder: 6 mm Blade thickness 1 cm before the tip: 1 mm POB: 6.5 cm from the cup Attached Images Last edited by werecow; 17th August 2024 at 04:31 PM.