Katana vs Broadsword...test cutting- National Geographic

[Nathaniel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYvwEnKRjA

[Aleksey G.]

Man, sucks video cuts it of at the end like that....
... The european guy overcommits on some strikes I think, his shoulder is all up front and does noit stop the sword in time if he needs to counter strike.

I was always fascinated by counter testing edged weapons from different cultures in battle, is there a better sword out there if the skill of both opponents is "generally" equal? Better design, strength, rigidity etc..
If you look on the tube, there are videos of katana vs the jian fights, rapier vs the broad sword etc....
I dont see much of the middle eastern curved sabers though...(shamshirs, kilijs etc...), thats upsetting, would like to see some field testing and techniques with that.

[kisak]

While I guess the actual tests themselves might be nice to show if one encounters someone who, for some reason, have gotten the notion that Europeans words are poor cutters, the program it's all taken from seems to have some severe issues though. "The broadsword relies of brute strength"?

I'm also rather sceptical about the whole "x vs y" concept. I don't think I've ever seen anyone propose a scenario/testing setup which manages even partially to eliminate the majority of other factors, without simultaneously being far too narrow in scope to say anything about the performance of the swords in general.

[KuKulzA28]

There tends to be some favoritism going on in these tests... often in favor of the nihonto...

it is like when Greyhounds are shown to be faster than Cheetahs oftentimes, but people like the idea of the Cheetah, untamed and fast as hell. But Greyhounds can be just as fast if not faster.

Like-wise people seem to hype up the Katana and say it will cut with ridiculous ease, etc... a sharp European broadsword could too...



and I agree, Middle Eastern and Indian swords are also often ignored. It seems that often it is the Chinese, Japanese, and European swords that people are concerned with... Where are the archipelago blades? The dha/darb? The shamshirs and khandas? The saif and the toukuba?

[katana]

Various 'cut' testing has concluded that it is not just the sharpness, or angle that the blade is sharpened , but the 'polish' of the blade that affects cutting performance.

A highly polished blade has less drag as it slices and aids cutting ability. A characteristic of katana blades.

It does not make sense to compare a Katana to a Broadsword. Broadswords were heavier and generally designed to fight against heavily armoured opponents. The katana was not.

Regards David

[fearn]

It's too bad Albion sword videos of the testing with their traditional blades. The videos I remember showed something you can't do with a katana: cutting the mat on an upward diagonal, using the back edge. The demonstrator did that not only with a replica arming sword, but also with a gladius, and in both cases, he did it one handed. Granted the guy was a smith with Conan-style arms, but it was still an interesting demonstration. The Cold Steel videos show similar results.

Bottom line is that a well made western blade (i.e. Albion) cuts at least as well as a katana, and a heavy Chinese dao can cut even better (if you believe Cold Steel). If you use a single demonstrator who is familiar with all the blades and test cuts them all against the same type of target, the katana shows little if any superiority. IMHO, the katana really shines when you have Mr. black-belt kendoka demonstrating against Mr. Joe Average reenactor.

Best,

F

[kronckew]

blade cross section variations could also affect cutting, wide fullers possibly can cut down friction drag while cutting soft materials, as do the cutouts and odd blade geometries of cheese knives.



and now, a diversion.

(caution: thread veer in progress.)

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

...

it is like when Greyhounds are shown to be faster than Cheetahs oftentimes, but people like the idea of the Cheetah, untamed and fast as hell. But Greyhounds can be just as fast if not faster.
...

there was a race between a professionally jockeyed race horse and a retired (and thus off peak training) greyhound over two furlongs (1/4 mile), the greyhound won by two horse lengths. similarly, top gear had a race between a class A racing greyhound (worth about £20000) against a sports car over two laps. the grey won by several seconds.

coincidentally that track was the one in ireland where my millie used to race in her early career in dublin. after moving to the UK, she handily won a stakes race, looking up the time and distance, she ran an average of 34 mph over 550 yards. a greyhounds top speed is usually noted at around 45 mph.

they figure they reach top speed in about 2 strides out of the trap, a feat millie was noted for. she normally lead from the front when she won and placed in the money over 2/3 of her 80 races before she was fouled by another dog and injured enough she was retired & thus went home with me and blue, my other greyhound. he never raced, but is a fiend on rabbits and other small animals like foxes & muntjaq deer. (he doesn't catch them but has great fun chasing them)



anyhow, there was a study recently where they were doing motion studies on the spines of greyhounds and cheetahs to see how they used their flex to store and release energy. the greyhounds consistently tested faster over the runs they were using. they put it down to motivation. greys like to run, cheetahs apparently only do it because they have to.

the 70mph top speed for a cheetah was apparently taken from a guesstimate made in africa over a rough terrain with a manual stopwatch, so is suspect.

a greyhound track owner did import a few cheetahs in the early part of the 20th century, trained them over a few months and then raced one against greyhounds to which they'd been accustomed to each other so as to not try to kill each other. anyway there was one race, the cheetah won handily, but was never raced again. appears cheetahs run out of steam very fast and take longer to recharge.

we now return you to our regularly scheduled thread.

i'm rather fond of the cold steel series of cutting tests of their swords, the one on their version of the dutch klewang is one of my favourites as i have a proper original dutch one myself. their use of pig carcasses complete with bones is a close as we are likely to get to real.

Cutlass cutting test

there are a number of cutting tests with swords on youtube, here's one of the hanwei dao (another one i have) vs. bamboo.

Hanwei practical dao cutting test

[Rick]

A Cat doesn't do anything it doesn't have to .

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Personally I don't think any of these 'versus' type contests have any validity whatsoever, too many variables. Plate armour, leather armour, quilted armour, thrusting swords, slashing swords etc etc. Sword types evolved as armour and fighting techniques evolved and vice versa. Super sharp differentially heat treated Japanese sword against Milanese plate armour equals bent and knackered katana, same sword against light quilted armour equals limbless opponent. Horses for courses!

Sally prefers warming her tootsies against the Aga these days but when racing she managed 325 yards in 18.05 secs equal to 36.83 mph. Always thought it would be a interesting to get her to run past a traffic speed camera at 4am when the roads are empty, wonder what the officers of the law would think of the photos!
Regards,
Norman.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
...

Sally prefers warming her tootsies against the Aga these days...

it's amazing that this breed of very special dog can sleep more than 23.5 hrs. a day. the other half hour being apportioned to eating, relieving themselves, and running at 45mph (which they sometime do while sleeping as well ). if you are lucky, they may actually play with toys (and with you) for part of their rest periods. they are not known as 45 mph couch potatoes without good reason.

most people are surprised that they do NOT require vast amounts of exercise. they're sprinters after all, a few hundred yards at top speed and they're knackered for two days...

blue and millie at this present moment are on the bed behind me, and look much like they do in the picture in my earlier post which was taken 4 years ago. i did not take another picture as there is very little noticeable difference. one must occasionally check them to make sure they are still alive. sometimes i take blue's pulse just to be sure. (they do sometimes sleep with their eyes open)

back on track, the katana as an art object is great, but we must consider that most of the high class blades we think of were made for the nobility and upper class samurai, the common ashigara made do with a more mundane and lesser quality weapon, maybe even just a spear. these lesser quality cannon fodder level blades did not survive.

the samurai coming up against the armoured chinese/mongols did not fare to well against an army trained to fight as a unit, and were forced to rethink their traditional methods of warfare. they did better in the melee of hand to hand fighting when boarding mongol vessels at sea tho.

i have heard people mention that a samurai about to go into a large organized battle in armour would purposely dull all but the last few inches of his sword, the dull edge being less likely to chip or fracture, and most work is done on any sword with the first few inches anyway. armour bashing was not the samurai style. going for weak points in the armour was the way. armpits, necks are always good targets as are inside the legs, wrists, forearms, etc.

a more modern cross cultural conflict was a story i was told of a gurkha nco who found himself in a hand to hand with a japanese officer and his katana. the gurkha of course had his khukuri, which is much the same as a greek kopis. the gurkha lost part of two fingers. he brought the japaese officers head and sword back to show his commanding officer.

the sword is just a tool. the real weapon is the mind using it.