Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Miscellania
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd August 2009, 01:03 AM   #1
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default A challenge ... what would this be?

The seller doesn't know ... and neither do i
It is in wood and about 5" long.
Any guess, Gentlemen?

Fernando

.
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2009, 01:11 AM   #2
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
The seller doesn't know ... and neither do i
It is in wood and about 5" long.
Any guess, Gentlemen?

Fernando

.
Why it's the Holy Slingshot of Antioch!
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2009, 02:30 AM   #3
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Why it's the Holy Slingshot of Antioch!
I'm trying really hard not to ROFL David ..
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2009, 04:22 AM   #4
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,940
Default

Hi Fernando,
You are the master of esoteric acquisitions!
Without context or any note of provenance, it would of course be really hard to say exactly what this might be, but the crosses would suggest the obvious Christian associations, and this would possibly be a votive of some kind. Such items were often created in symbolic images, but at this point it would be tough to guess.

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2009, 01:17 PM   #5
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Why it's the Holy Slingshot of Antioch!
Brilliant, David
Why didn't i think of that, in the first place?
... used by the priest to throw the communion wafers into the congregants mouths; good to avoid H1N1 contamination .
Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2009, 01:48 PM   #6
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the hint .
No, no context or provenance, except that this is a Christian influenced region and, as you well suggest, the crosses are a symbolic reminder.
Only i think they are just alegoric and the object might as well be some kind of utensil, not necessarily with a direct connection to religious paraphernalia.
Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2009, 01:56 PM   #7
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Hi Rick,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I'm trying really hard not to ROFL David ..
Initials are tricky for a non english dominant .
Is this the meaning?





Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2009, 02:06 PM   #8
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Smile

Hi Fernando,
You are correct Sir .
I needed to laugh a bit last night; my apologies .

Do we have an origin for this piece ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2009, 02:19 PM   #9
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
... my apologies . ...
Apologies? now i am worried


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
... Do we have an origin for this piece ?
No; i will have to ask the seller, although most probably he has bought it in a street fair and will not help

Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2009, 10:04 PM   #10
Jeff Pringle
Member
 
Jeff Pringle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 189
Default

I theorize that it is a lucet, a device used for making cord for the last thousand years…size and shape seem about right, as does the wear polish…
Jeff Pringle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2009, 06:56 PM   #11
Bryan.H
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 51
Default Sudanese war club?

I saw this on Fagan's militaria site... he describes it as a Sudanese War club (?)



alternatively, it could just as easily be an ancient egyptian can opener.

Last edited by Bryan.H; 4th August 2009 at 07:07 PM.
Bryan.H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2009, 07:05 PM   #12
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,430
Default

It does have a bit of an African look, so with the Christian imagery, this would point to Highland Ethiopia. Ethiopian priests did carry hand crosses in procession usually made of metal...

Just a guess
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2009, 08:44 PM   #13
roanoa
Member
 
roanoa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 233
Default

Let's avoid making silly comments about religious practises, such as Holy Communion, which I for one take quite seriously. Having said that, I believe this is an Ethiopian SISTRUM. It is missing the top part with the metal disks.
roanoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2009, 10:17 PM   #14
fearn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
Default

Hi Roanoa,

Do you have an example sistrum that looks like this? Most of the "ethiopian" sistrums shown on Google have much thinner uprights, and I'd expect to see holes drilled through it to hold the disks if it was a sistrum.

Neat object. I didn't know what a lucet was until Jeff brought it up.

Best,

F
fearn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2009, 04:30 AM   #15
roanoa
Member
 
roanoa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 233
Default

I looked up Google Images for "lucet" and there is indeed a strong similarity, though there is no hole beneath the "fork". The reason why I suggested a sistrum is because of the religious symbols. A simple string could be tied to the fork and there really is no need for holes to be drilled. Again, on Google Images I found a "How to make a sistrum" with a wooden fork and a string (plus the metal disks). So I still believe it is a possibility, though, of corse, I cannot be sure....
roanoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2009, 01:49 PM   #16
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,178
Default

not all the lucets i saw in the internet had holes. i'm tending towards that option. even monks or nuns would have done something like lucetting to occupy their time and make useful cords.

of course, it is also likely to be a plumber's tool.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2009, 06:16 PM   #17
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
not all the lucets i saw in the internet had holes. i'm tending towards that option. even monks or nuns would have done something like lucetting to occupy their time and make useful cords.

of course, it is also likely to be a plumber's tool.
True, there are quite a few lucets in googles images that do not have holes in them, but what most of them do seem to have in common is that they bow outward at the top of the forks to keep the string or rope on the forks while working. Fernando's example does not do this, infact the forks seem to angle in slightly and i think the rope would be likely to slip off, so i don't think this is a lucet.
I am also dubious about whether it is a weapon of any kind.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2009, 06:27 PM   #18
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by roanoa
I looked up Google Images for "lucet" and there is indeed a strong similarity, though there is no hole beneath the "fork". The reason why I suggested a sistrum is because of the religious symbols. A simple string could be tied to the fork and there really is no need for holes to be drilled. Again, on Google Images I found a "How to make a sistrum" with a wooden fork and a string (plus the metal disks). So I still believe it is a possibility, though, of corse, I cannot be sure....
I don't think this is a sistrum either. Sure you can make one out of it by stringing disks, but i can discern no wear where the strings would have been, nor do i see any wear where the disks would have no doubt struck on the inside of the forks when in use.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2009, 06:48 PM   #19
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,806
Default

Looks like a pious persons knitting or lace making tool? I think it is most probably European. If it was from Yorkshire it would be worth an awful lot of money.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2009, 11:06 PM   #20
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by roanoa
Let's avoid making silly comments about religious practises, such as Holy Communion, which I for one take quite seriously...
No need to be fundamentalist, roanoa . We are joking here; considering a good faith piece of humor a silly coment, it's a remark that deserves no better classification .


Quote:
Originally Posted by roanoa
...Having said that, I believe this is an Ethiopian SISTRUM. It is missing the op part with the metal disks.
I find it very hard to be a sistrum, and i don't think it is missing any attachement; there is no marks sugesting so.
BTW, did you know that the sistrum, provenant from the egiptian cult to Isis, was forbidden in the VI century Concilium?
So true that it maintained its existence with Copta Christianism until present days.
Fernando

Last edited by fernando; 6th August 2009 at 12:36 PM. Reason: word addition- phrase correction
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2009, 11:24 PM   #21
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Thank you all for your sugestions, Gentlemen.
This exercize of trying to find out what an unkown thing is, can be a fascinating theme, specially because of the variety of sugestions put up.
So far we have a lucet, a slingshot ( ), a plumbers tool, a hand cross, and a war club ( ).
Although the lucet seems to be the closest sugestion, i don't think it is one; but i am not based in any evidence to so think.
I could swear it is not from Yorkshire ; i am more certain of that than of the eventualy that it might be a weapon .

Fernando.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2009, 01:55 AM   #22
tribalarms
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 26
Default

Could it be a distaff?
tribalarms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2009, 07:18 AM   #23
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
So far we have a lucet, a slingshot ( ), a plumbers tool, a hand cross, and a war club ( ).
Don't forgets Jim's suggestion of a votive, which i have not discounted yet. In fact, for me right now it seems the most likely.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2009, 07:28 AM   #24
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,178
Default

the 'plumbers tool' was a reference to the other thread about a lead headed cane whose explanation varied from trench club to rabbit throwing stick and turned out to be a plumbing tool used to bang out dents in lead pipes.

in other words, keep your options open, it could be anything. probably something not mentioned that was in common use way back but is not now.

5 inches is a bit short for a war club i suspect.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2009, 12:42 PM   #25
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Don't forget Jim's suggestion of a votive, which i have not discounted yet. In fact, for me right now it seems the most likely.
My uggly fault, David ... shame on me .
Yes Jim, also a sugestion to consider; i must honestly confess, though, that i still don't see light in the end of the tunnel .
Thank's a lot all the same.
Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2009, 12:46 PM   #26
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalarms
Could it be a distaff?
Also an hypothesis not to discard.
But with those conical prongs, wouldn't the yarn slip away?
Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2009, 03:10 PM   #27
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Smile

My Wife who spins, knits, and is a high end Seamstress says it is too small to be a distaff .

On my computer screen 'Nando's full shot of this device renders larger than it actually is .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2009, 04:53 PM   #28
fearn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
Default

The more I look at this, the more I become interested in the details.

For instance, the area between the two uprights appears to be carved down to an edge, and the supports for the uprights have those grooves which appear to be lined up.

There are a couple of possibilities. Either it's a tool, in which case the details are functionally significant, or it's some sort of symbolic item. In the later case, it's pretty clearly Christian, but I keep seeing some sort of "devil's horn" gesture in the uprights, combined with the three crosses, that makes me skeptical.

I don't have an answer, but despite what Rick's wife says, I keep coming back to something associated with thread or yarn-making. Something associated with a spinning wheel? Given the wood construction and lack of wear, if it was a tool, it pretty definitely had to be used for manipulating soft materials like thread, yarn, cord, or cloth.

Best,

F
fearn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2009, 05:26 PM   #29
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Default

At 5" tall, there aren't many things it can be. Small, must be portable. Decorated, personalized to the owner's taste. Something that would be used more or less commonly. The two horns look worn down, the surface is smooth from handling. Must have been held in the hand, subject to a fair bit of rubbing. I could see it used in weaving of some sort. A type of weaving comb?

Lucet seems most likely, not all have holes - see pic below.

Thoughts...

Emanuel
Attached Images
 
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2009, 06:08 PM   #30
fearn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
Default

Hi Emanuel,

Interesting problem with the lucet theory: the edges of the piece. None of the lucet images I've seen have smooth, rounded edges, not bevels and grooves. As others noted, they also tend to have swelled ends and narrow arm bases, presumably to keep the yarns on the lucet.

While I don't have a better candidate, I'm not convinced yet.

Best,

F
fearn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.